Ch. 14 -Does Santa Claus Undermine Critical Thinking?

Chris OConnor · Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:44 pm

Ch. 14 -Does Santa Claus Undermine Critical Thinking?

CWT36 · Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:05 am

What a joy it was to read this chapter.

Skeptics have an often deserved reputation of being party poopers. We're accused of going out of our way to ruin things that people value. We kill god, we put down the psychics, we think we're smarter than everyone else, and it goes on and on.

How nice it is to have a reasonable argument to be pro Santa.

Riniolo writes:


	Quote: Magical explanations serve a useful purpose in helping children to "preserve rather than undermine their commitment to systems of natural law." In essence, magical thinking is a natural part of cognitive development with the purpose of allowing the child to compartmentalize contradictory evidence without threatening their entire belief system. For example, when the child witnesses a direct violation to a well-established principle (e.g., objects are supposed to roll downhill), labeling a visual illusion (i.e., an object appearing to roll uphill) as a real magical event allows the child to maintain the physical principle without abandoning his entire belief system, until further understanding of how the world works occurs. Thus, contemporary theory and research results support the notion that magical thinking plays an important role in supporting, not undermining, scientifically oriented thinking in children.

Now that's interesting stuff!

geo · Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:28 am

Thanks for starting this up.

I always felt a little guilty telling the Santa story to my own kids, leaving the cookies and milk on Christmas Eve and all that. My wife and I briefly discussed not doing it. Briefly as in a few seconds. It's one of those things that is repeated from generation to generation and probably should be discussed by new couples. But Riniolo makes a compelling case that it's good practice for critical thinking. He clearly states up front he has an emotional bias towards it.

Suzanne · Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:41 am

Magic! Santa is magic to children. I no longer have children who believe in Santa, and I have to admitt, I am sad about it.

When my kids were little, to prevent them from sneeking downstairs I told them that Santa would sometimes take a nap on the couch, and that daddy had to go downstairs and check. One year my husband went so far as to jingle bells and loudly say, HO, HO, HO, giving the impression that Santa was in fact in our house. My kids were so excited! Priceless!

The one question that I would have on the topic of Santa would be, since parents are essentially lying to their children, will this effect the trust between parent and child. "You've lied about Santa, what else have you lied about?" When my oldest son realized there was no Santa, he was devestated. I was not prepared for this reaction. He was more than devestated, he was angry, and I often wonder if he asked himself the above posed question.

As far as critical thinking and magical entities go, children come to the conclusion themselves about these ideas. Even when told by friends, that Santa does not exist, children will still choose to believe, until they are ready to think critically and realize that Santa does in fact not exist. It may be the first time in a childs life where they go against popular belief, where they realize that an estabished belief makes no sense and they reject it.

:hmm:

This sounds familiar to me, have we discussed the possibility that another magical entity that lives in a magical place in the sky may in fact not exist?

CWT36 · Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:00 pm


	Suzanne wrote: This sounds familiar to me, have we discussed the possibility that another magical entity that lives in a magical place in the sky may in fact not exist?

Priceless

geo · Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:30 pm


	Suzanne wrote: This sounds familiar to me, have we discussed the possibility that another magical entity that lives in a magical place in the sky may in fact not exist?

The difference is that often the parent still believes or professes to believe in this invisible magical entity in the sky.

I think there comes a time in a child's development where they start thinking critically about Santa Claus, but they are not particularly motivated to probe this question too deeply. After all, this belief pays big dividends with all those presents under the tree. A year or two might pass with suspended disbelief, but sooner or later the reality becomes too obvious for continued denial.

Regarding religion, perhaps the child doesn't reach this stage of incredulity because the parents still believe in it or profess to believe in it. And maybe this is how these beliefs get cemented into place?

Just a few random thoughts for a Sunday. :cool:

DWill · Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:50 pm

geo wrote:


	Suzanne wrote: This sounds familiar to me, have we discussed the possibility that another magical entity that lives in a magical place in the sky may in fact not exist?

The difference is that often the parent still believes or professes to believe in this invisible magical entity in the sky.
Regarding religion, perhaps the child doesn't reach this stage of incredulity because the parents still believe in it or profess to believe in it. And maybe this is how these beliefs get cemented into place?

As falsehoods go, the belief in Santa seems pretty up-front and contains the means of its extinction. Kids are told that every Christmas eve Santa visits every house in the world. After a few years of hearing this, and with some intellectual maturing, kids will see all this as improbable. Religion can be less up-front about its claims, for example saying that Christ will arrive but nobody can know when. That way, his never arriving is not proof of his not existing.

Suzanne raises the question of whether belief in a deity points to a problem in critical thinking. Different ways to look at this, but I would say no, or at least that if it does show such a problem, it often is not a big deal. We obviously get through our days doing a lot more, mentally, than thinking critically. If some of our mental effort goes toward belief in a god who is involved with us, I can't see harm in it, and it may well be a good thing for the person when his own unique psychological needs are taken into account. In my view, we have latitude to believe in such things because when it becomes important to think critically, we usually do. We'll take our sick kid to the hospital rather than rely on a spirit to heal her, or we'll change how we've invested our money instead of sending it to the quack on TV who promised a huge return from God. Except, that is, when some of us don't abandon our religious thinking and because of it make some terrible mistakes such as these. But in itself, belief in a deity does not handicap anyone from a critical thinking perspective.

CWT36 · Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:34 pm

It's important to remember that while being a critical thinker is extremely important, it is not the only aspect of a healthy child. Children's play and imagination are very important tools in their psychological development.

For many the myth of Santa lives on long after they have comprehended the truth. The joy that many adults feel around Christmas comes from the magic of their imagination. Having a jolly old man pretend to be Santa Claus is not only fun for the children, it can bring great joy and meaning to the real man inside the red costume. Christmas gives adults a socially acceptable way to play again, to be childlike.

It seems somewhat silly to juxtapose god with Santa, but here goes:

The myth of Santa promises that good boys and girls will be blessed with some material gifts once a year. It really doesn't promise anything else. Nothing more, nothing less. Santa delivers on that promise to millions of children every year. We have empirical evidence.

The myth of god promises eternal life if you jump through all the right hoops. However, there is no empirical evidence that he has ever delivered on his promise even once. None. And oh, by the way, be very afraid because unlike Santa, god will punish you if he decides it's necessary.

All hail Santa! :bow:

Suzanne · Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:44 pm

CWT36 wrote:


	Quote: And oh, by the way, be very afraid because unlike Santa, god will punish you if he decides it's necessary.

Ah, but you can get coal in your stocking!

DWill · Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:40 pm

We've had our say about similarities between a belief in Santa Claus and the more simplistic or naive images of God. I suppose that those simple notions of God as our personal protector often erode on their own as we see how the world is actually working--but they don't always, certainly. In relation to religion, I noted that Riniolo mentioned it only once, when he cited the lack of evidence that distant prayer has any positive effect. Otherwise he stays clear of it, which is probably a good decision overall, as well as being necessary for a teacher who needs to avoid offending his students. He does mention that our ability to compartmentalize allows us in any case to have some mistaken beliefs without presenting to others in daily life as irrational (Conan Doyle's belief in fairies is his major example). He is most concerned with situations in which evidence really can be brought to bear on the issues, so that anyone would have a hard time denying the truth. This is why he concentrates on psychic claims. Religious claims tend to be harder to disprove, although creationism is a definite exception.

Riniolo advises skepticism as our general rule. But he cautions that universal skepticism is going too far. I think he's right that we need to accept on faith certain limited matters. Nobody has time to perform due diligence on everything.

Robert Tulip · Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:15 pm

If I can chip in about Santa Claus (sorry I'm not reading the Riniolo book), the ritual is part of the enchantment of Christmas, the sense that Christmas points to a big recurrent symbolic myth bringing the year to a close and starting the new year. Deflating the enchantment is an important part of the myth, validating scientific empirical attitudes. My concern with the Santa Claus myth arises from how it was established in the current costume by Coca-Cola, and is inextricably linked to American capitalism as a validation of the consumer society, blessing the buying and selling and giving and receiving of gifts. Santa is to some extent displacing Jesus as the reason for the season - although of course Jesus displaced Mithra and the Saturnalia millennia ago when Christianity occupied December 25, the day the light starts getting longer, a point in the year that is celebrated in many cultures.

DWill · Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:31 am


	Robert Tulip wrote: Santa is to some extent displacing Jesus as the reason for the season - although of course Jesus displaced Mithra and the Saturnalia millennia ago when Christianity occupied December 25, the day the light starts getting longer, a point in the year that is celebrated in many cultures.

Displacing to some extent? That's putting it mildly. But I don't know how much sense it makes for a non-Christian like me to complain about the commercialization of Christmas. And hasn't Christmas itself pretty much been linked to consumerism from early on? Christmas has assumed a huge role today in our economy, with many retail businesses making profits during the season that let them stay open the rest of the year. Socially, with the fracturing of families and the isolation caused by use of private media, Christmas has become a time to experience family and community.

I just replied to Interbane on the topic of memes, and it occurs to me that Santa Claus could be analyzed as a meme. I would be interested in doing this mainly to see whether there is an advantage to using the idea of memes, compared with the tools that we already have to talk about culture. Could considering Santa as a meme be even a step backward, in the sense that it produces less richness of content? Or might memes be just superfluous? Well, you can see where I'm coming from on the issue.

geo · Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:26 pm

DWill wrote:


	Robert Tulip wrote: Santa is to some extent displacing Jesus as the reason for the season - although of course Jesus displaced Mithra and the Saturnalia millennia ago when Christianity occupied December 25, the day the light starts getting longer, a point in the year that is celebrated in many cultures.

Displacing to some extent? That's putting it mildly. But I don't know how much sense it makes for a non-Christian like me to complain about the commercialization of Christmas. And hasn't Christmas itself pretty much been linked to consumerism from early on? Christmas has assumed a huge role today in our economy, with many retail businesses making profits during the season that let them stay open the rest of the year. Socially, with the fracturing of families and the isolation caused by use of private media, Christmas has become a time to experience family and community.

I just replied to Interbane on the topic of memes, and it occurs to me that Santa Claus could be analyzed as a meme. I would be interested in doing this mainly to see whether there is an advantage to using the idea of memes, compared with the tools that we already have to talk about culture. Could considering Santa as a meme be even a step backward, in the sense that it produces less richness of content? Or might memes be just superfluous? Well, you can see where I'm coming from on the issue.

How interesting to read this post after reading Wright's TEoG. Maybe DWill had already read the book when he posted this. Clearly we have seen in our lifetimes a rather dramatic shift in the tone and message of Christmas. It's an evolution that is happening right under our noses if we simply open our eyes to it.

Though I like that we are moving away from the irrational elements of religion, the new religion of consumerism is hardly better. Personally, I find pre-Christian paganism, which emphasizes communion with nature, to be much more meaningful and sustainable. Santa Claus with his sackful of toys has almost become an obscenity. Or am I being too cynical?

Interbane · Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:40 pm


	Quote: Personally, I find pre-Christian paganism, which emphasizes communion with nature, to be much more meaningful and sustainable. Santa Claus with his sackful of toys has almost become an obscenity. Or am I being too cynical?

I'm more and more surprised at how effective small interests are in controlling the zeitgeist. I don't think you're being too cynical. Each citizen is just a sheep with money, which they MUST spend to keep the economy going. Since when is spending a virtue? How does our position on spending weigh in to morality? Is it immoral to refrain from spending, as the rich people do, and instead amass wealth?

johnson1010 · Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:24 pm

we will tell our kids about santa, just like we will tell them a bunch of other legends and stories, but we would never lead them into thinking that they should treat that story with anymore credence than Jack Frost or Jesus Christ.

i can appreciate the notion of having to suspend disbelief until a better understanding of the real scenario can be grasped, but there is no scenatio which santa is needed to explain. Gifts come from those who took th time and effort to get them for you. You should appreciate them for their thoughtfulness, not some crazy magical elf in a FTL snow sled.

Your child's early life is dedicated to understanding and interacting with natural systems. You only send your kid down a blind alley by encouraging santa-thoughts, and make them waste valuable energy chasing rediculous nonsense that really only seems to serve the purpose of adult superiority.

I had the chance to witness a santa snow-job over christmas. a girl recieved a big doll house that had been previously owned. it had a fanciful sticker on the inside that they tried to remove, but couldn't and just slapped it back into place. she could tell the sticker was not meant to be there, and had to have come from somebody. They told her it was from an elf.
"Why would he put a sticker on it, then peel it half way off?" was her question.

Instead of encourageing this sprout of intellectual integrity and critical thinking, they white washed her with assurances that that is just the kind of thing that santa's elves would do.

wasted opportunity. all so that the adults in the room could swell up like toads and wink at eachother across the room." Can you believe she really believes this crap?! KIDS ARE FUNNY!"

You are putting speed bumps in your child's path. Santa will just serve as an excellent example of group think where a WELL KNOWN fairy tale is perpetuated to new generations as fact for no good reason at all. Look at your neightbors, little guy. See how they swallow that line about santa? What else do you think might not be totally on the up and up?

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