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Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior 
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Post Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior
stahrwe wrote:
DWill wrote:
stahwre, are you watching the "God in America" program? I'd be interested in your reaction (over in that thread). I also was wondering if you plan on following Wright through the Koran discussion. Would you have any of the same objections to Wright deconstructing the Koran as you have to him doing it to the Bible? And if not, why not?


I am not watching God in America. I have watched such programs before and find them less than accurate.

I will follow the discussion of the Koran but I am not knowledgeable about the Koran having only read it once so I suspect that Wright will get a free pass on it since I don't think there are any Muslims on BT.

"Such programs"--prejudging, no? I think if you were to lower your fear of PBS you'd find the program offers a non-jaundiced view of religion in our history. And by your avoidance of the question about dissection of the Koran, I'd have to assume that you'd not have a problem with Wright applying the scalpel to that book.


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Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:23 am
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Post Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior
Interbane wrote:
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This is classic Turtle, when your arguments fail you resort to the irrelevant.


You left my arguments completely untouched and only criticized trivial, unrelated points. It doesn't matter if no one wins in "real" lotteries, that's completely irrelevant to my point. It doesn't matter if you refer to low odds as 1 in 200 or "unlikely". Saying that men were brutalized for being Christians serves no purpose. (Would YOU suddenly stop believing even if you were threatened with brutality?) You think your apoplectic replies when shown unequivocably to be wrong are cute.

You did absolutely nothing to any of my arguments, you just posted a bunch of garbage that touched on ancillary, non-critical points to make yourself feel better. It's not worthy of a reply from me. If that appears to you as turtling up, then so be it.

Quote:
Let's suppose for a moment that Abram only thought he heard God's call to leave Ur and relocate to Palestine and to worship only Him.


Yes, let's start all our arguments with assumptions. :mrgreen:

Quote:
The age of the earth has nothing to do with this discussion except to serve as reassurance to you that you can dismiss my critique.


The age of the Earth has EVERYTHING to do with this discussion. You're appealing to parsimony to justify your methods of interpretation. What you fail to realize when discussing the motive that ancient scholars had for fabricating the bible, you're completely ignoring a required conclusion. If they did not fabricate the bible, most modern human knowledge is wrong. The age of the Earth is the most clear cut example. Dozens of fields of study from different locations, including different groups of people, and entirely different methods, have individually corroborated the Earth's age. The procedures and background of which are built upon a pyramidal structure of knowledge so vast and all encompassing that you're truly an idiot to think the entire scientific community is that perfectly and totally deluded. Experiments that are routinely re-created hundreds of times across the globe must ALL BE SIMULTANEOUSLY WRONG... but not only that, they must be wrong in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY!!! The only answer to which is that EVERY ONE of these scientists are working in concert to further a massive conspiracy that is so complicated and all encompassing that the dangers of Nuclear War pale in comparison to the dangers it poses. They must somehow know, out of a pool of hundreds of millions, which people will eventually turn into scientists in the near future, and recruit them to their cause before any damaging experiments are done that would possibly unravel the conspiracy.

You're right about one thing though. We can dismiss the critique of anyone who is deluded enough to believe such nonsense.


I am quite astounded that you claim I have not addressed the major elements of the issues. I have:

1) provided the correct explanation as to how monotheism emerged from poyltheism.
2) demonstrated numerous major, significant errors and omissions in TEoG.
3) addressed Wright's concept of the evolution of god as a zero sum game to a non-zero sum game and shown that he is mistaken.

But now, you want to get into a YEC argument because you have no defense to what I have presented.

Okay, if you want to do the YEC thing, start another discussion and I will be happy to continue for as many posts as you have a stomach for but that discussion has no place here as, if Wright even mentions the age of the earth, (I don't recall it), it is not indexed.


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Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:33 am
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Post Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior
Star Burst wrote:
This is just one of the many arguments that you cannot win with the Bible, sorry. If one man created the earth he ought to at least have a deed or something that could be found indicating his ownership.


Not relevant to this discussion.


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- G.K. Chesterton


Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:36 am
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Post Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior
DWill wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
DWill wrote:
stahwre, are you watching the "God in America" program? I'd be interested in your reaction (over in that thread). I also was wondering if you plan on following Wright through the Koran discussion. Would you have any of the same objections to Wright deconstructing the Koran as you have to him doing it to the Bible? And if not, why not?


I am not watching God in America. I have watched such programs before and find them less than accurate.

I will follow the discussion of the Koran but I am not knowledgeable about the Koran having only read it once so I suspect that Wright will get a free pass on it since I don't think there are any Muslims on BT.

"Such programs"--prejudging, no? I think if you were to lower your fear of PBS you'd find the program offers a non-jaundiced view of religion in our history. And by your avoidance of the question about dissection of the Koran, I'd have to assume that you'd not have a problem with Wright applying the scalpel to that book.


I listen to NPR all the time.

Does the program include Bill Moyers?
If he is involved in any way, I am not interested.

How did I avoid your question about the Koran?


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“You cannot evade the issue of God, whether you talk about pigs or the binomial theory, you are still talking about Him. Now if Christianity be. . . a fragment of metaphysical nonsense invented by a few people, then, of course, defending it will simply mean talking that metaphysical nonsense over and over. But if Christianity should happen to be true – then defending it may mean talking about anything or everything. Things can be irrelevant to the proposition that Christianity is false, but nothing can be irrelevant to the proposition that Christianity is true.”
- G.K. Chesterton


Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:38 am
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Post Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior
stahrwe wrote:
Star Burst wrote:
This is just one of the many arguments that you cannot win with the Bible, sorry. If one man created the earth he ought to at least have a deed or something that could be found indicating his ownership.


Not relevant to this discussion.


Yeah it is. Cause you will no doubt try to prove him with the Bible.



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Post Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior
Star Burst wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
Star Burst wrote:
This is just one of the many arguments that you cannot win with the Bible, sorry. If one man created the earth he ought to at least have a deed or something that could be found indicating his ownership.


Not relevant to this discussion.


Yeah it is. Cause you will no doubt try to prove him with the Bible.


I think this discussion has been hijacked! In fact I think way too much time has been spent discussing ideas other than those put forth by Wright. This is supposed to be a discussion of his book and not an arguement for and against the authenticity of the Bible. Each time I come to this thread the discussion seems to be the same one that began in Chapter 1 and not really discussing what is in the chapter. I get discouraged and go away without posting.


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Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:32 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior
Good point, Saffron. There is a "TEoG Spillover Thread" for this stuff, and I wasn't paying enough attention to kick this discussion over there when it got off track.


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Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:41 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior
"Saffron"

Quote:
I think this discussion has been hijacked! In fact I think way too much time has been spent discussing ideas other than those put forth by Wright. This is supposed to be a discussion of his book and not an arguement for and against the authenticity of the Bible. Each time I come to this thread the discussion seems to be the same one that began in Chapter 1 and not really discussing what is in the chapter. I get discouraged and go away without posting.


OK, then I will bow out and you can continue your discussion over this no account book. Have a nice day..........



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Post Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior
I would like a recommendation for a resource about Osiris from the first century, or at least one by a credible Egyptologist which predates, Massey, Murdock and Wright.


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Post Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior
Saffron wrote:
I think this discussion has been hijacked! In fact I think way too much time has been spent discussing ideas other than those put forth by Wright. This is supposed to be a discussion of his book and not an arguement for and against the authenticity of the Bible. Each time I come to this thread the discussion seems to be the same one that began in Chapter 1 and not really discussing what is in the chapter. I get discouraged and go away without posting.


You are a moderator. If a discussion has been hijacked you can suspend whoever is responsible.



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Post Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior
On page 308 Wright says, "In the gospels Jesus doesn't say he'll return."

Quote:
John 14
1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

4 You know the way to the place where I am going."NIV


Quote:
John 21
20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?")

21 When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?"

22 Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."

23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true. NIV


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“You cannot evade the issue of God, whether you talk about pigs or the binomial theory, you are still talking about Him. Now if Christianity be. . . a fragment of metaphysical nonsense invented by a few people, then, of course, defending it will simply mean talking that metaphysical nonsense over and over. But if Christianity should happen to be true – then defending it may mean talking about anything or everything. Things can be irrelevant to the proposition that Christianity is false, but nothing can be irrelevant to the proposition that Christianity is true.”
- G.K. Chesterton


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Post Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior
DWill has the right to guide people gently back on to the topic. And if he feels anyone is disrespecting his efforts to keep the discussion on topic I'll help him however he requests.


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Post Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior
stahrwe wrote:
On page 308 Wright says, "In the gospels Jesus doesn't say he'll return."

It would be so helpful, and not that much to ask, if you would only tie these demonstrations to the book at hand. So far you've only tied them to the author, not his argument. So I'll ask you again, please, if you are going to continue in this vein, do so as someone who has an interest in discussing ideas in the book. If you can't do this because the only matter of worth to you is biblical correctness, not the larger points Wright is trying to make, you should withdraw or just create a thread called Wright's mistakes.


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Last edited by DWill on Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior
DWill wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
On page 308 Wright says, "In the gospels Jesus doesn't say he'll return."

It would be so helpful, and not that much to ask, if you would only tie these demonstrations to the book at hand. So far you've only tied them to the author, not his argument. So I'll ask you again, please, if you are going to continue in this vein, do so as someone who has an interest in discussing ideas in the book. If you can't do this because the only matter of worth to you is biblical correctness, not the larger points Wright is trying to make, you should withdraw or just create a thread called Wright's mistakes.


Let me turn the question around and ask why Wright mentions it in the book?
What is his intent by stating that Jesus never mentions in the Gospels that He will return.
In my opinion anything in the book is fair game for discussion. These are not trivial points. The return of Jesus, its timing and related events has been the subject of debate for centuries. Wright does not help his theory, which on the surface is a valid question, by his lack of accuracy in his statements about the Bible. Suppose you go on to quote Wright and someone challenges you in one of these errors?

As for hijacking the discussion. First of all, I have discussed two different theories as to the origin of monotheism from polytheism and pointed out the mertis of them vs Wright. I have discussed his theory of zero and non-zero sum games theory as relates to same.


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“You cannot evade the issue of God, whether you talk about pigs or the binomial theory, you are still talking about Him. Now if Christianity be. . . a fragment of metaphysical nonsense invented by a few people, then, of course, defending it will simply mean talking that metaphysical nonsense over and over. But if Christianity should happen to be true – then defending it may mean talking about anything or everything. Things can be irrelevant to the proposition that Christianity is false, but nothing can be irrelevant to the proposition that Christianity is true.”
- G.K. Chesterton


Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:38 am
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Post Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior
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