Joined: Oct 2002 Posts: 554 Location: Saint Louis
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: Country:
Ch. 12 - Reason Embattled
Jacoby suggests this soliloquy from Shakespeare's King Lear "is the essence of the secularist and humanist faith... [which] must be offered ... as a robust creed worthy of the world's first secular government"
Poor naked wretches, whereso'er you are, That bide the pelting of this pitiless storm, How shall your houseless heads and unfed sides, Your loop'd and window'd raggedness, defend you From seasons such as these? O, I have ta'en Too little care of this! Take physic, pomp; Expose thyself to feel what wretches feel, That thou mayst shake the superflux to them, And show the heavens more just.
I don't understand either the speech or the connection to secularism. Anyone? If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything. Daniel Dennett, 1984
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 2557 Location: decentralized
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender:
Re: Ch. 12 - Reason Embattled
Looks to me like it would be equally applicable to the basic Christian ethos. And it's practically a paraphrase of the inscription on the Statue of Liberty -- except that Shakespeare beat Eiffel to the punch.
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 3552 Location: NJ
Thanks: 1 Thanked: 5 times in 5 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: Ch. 12 - Reason Embattled
I think it is because this excerpt stresses caring for other humans and understanding that we are all the same and should care for those less fortunate than ourselves...and less about appeasing a god.
At least that is what it says to me.
Mr. P.
The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"
I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 2557 Location: decentralized
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender:
Re: Ch. 12 - Reason Embattled
Well, it's humanist in that it emphasizes the notion of imagining one's self in another person's position, which is a psychological basis for humanist belief.
Joined: Jul 2002 Posts: 509 Location: Cincinnati, OH Highscores:1 Thanks: 0 Thanked: 18 times in 16 posts
Gender:
Re: Ch. 12 - Reason Embattled
I think we'll have to find a better creed than that! Few Americans will respond to phrases like "Take physic, pomp" or "shake the superflux to them". I have no clue what they mean...
Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 179
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender:
Re: Ch. 12 - Reason Embattled
I often wish people would be more ready to offer literal interpretations of poetic language (more than one if they see ambiguity) - so that I could be a little more sure that I am not missing something that they are seeing. I suppose their reluctance is in part due to a reluctance to patronize the reader by pointing out something obvious - but I also wonder whether they are not at some level afraid to come out into the open in case they have misinterpreted or missed something. So, with apologies if this is too simpleminded to be worth saying:
Take physic, pomp
physic is medicine. Pomp, I take it, is a reference to himself. i.e. I gloss it as
Take the medicine, you proud, pompous old man!
The medicine being, of course, the act of exposing himself to the elements in order that he may better understand the misery of the poor who have no protection.
That thou mayst shake the superflux to them,
superflux means abundance, so "shake the superflux to them" means treat them to the benefits of your wealth with generosity.
What is the connection to secularism? I suppose Jacoby sees this as a powerful poetic statement of the principle on which a non-theistic philosophy should be based - that the rich and powerful should take time to recognize the suffering of those less fortunate and be moved to help and protect them.
Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 179
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender:
Re: Ch. 12 - Reason Embattled
Possibly. It seems especially odd to call it secularist when the last line is: And show the heavens more just.
Which may just be an Elizabethan way of saying And show the world (or Providence) more just, but could also be a reference to the idea of a king as appointed by God, and hence his representative.
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 2557 Location: decentralized
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender:
Re: Ch. 12 - Reason Embattled
It could probably be interpreted a number of ways. It might, for instance, be taken to mean, "And show the heavens that we're more just than they." I don't think that would be a very orthodox reading, though.
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 212 Location: San Francisco, CA
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender:
Re: Ch. 12 - Reason Embattled
ken, thanks, that is a very informative post. I guess we also have to remember that Shakepear wrote a few hundred years ago and the language has changed.
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 212 Location: San Francisco, CA
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender:
Re: Ch. 12 - Reason Embattled
OK, am I the only one scared out of my mind by this chapter? Scalia saying that god is visible in the work of our founding fathers, but not in our more recent politicians? Q: Hey, Anthony: Tell me, what year do your devinely inspired eyes tell you that the lord stopped caring about the good 'ol U. S. of A?
That congress can't tell the difference between cloning humans and extracting cells? That the enlighenment, the age of reason, is downplayed because we are apparently too poorly educated to actually reason well?
Joined: Oct 2002 Posts: 554 Location: Saint Louis
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: Country:
Re: Ch. 12 - Reason Embattled
Drs Gould and Dawkins agreed that it was not wise for real scientists to debate cretinists in public because the fact of the debate, rather than the content, was used by the cretinists to make themselves look "mainstream". Neither was shy about taking on any and all comers, including each other, in print.
I don't see anything wrong with staying generally on topic but I don't see any need to be obseesive about it either. And I didn't see this thread as an "argument", it looked like a civil and appropriate discussion to me. All four premises... that atheism will eventually predominate, that it never will, that it would lead to more divisiveness, that it would lead to less... are plausible scenarios both important and interesting. If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything. Daniel Dennett, 1984
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 3552 Location: NJ
Thanks: 1 Thanked: 5 times in 5 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: Ch. 12 - Reason Embattled
Yes. But too much of this discussion has degenerated into nothing about the book...look at the preface thread. There are other forums for this. I want the book discussions I lead to be quality discourse on the book...so when the authors come to chat, people know what they wrote!
Mr. P.
The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"
I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 3552 Location: NJ
Thanks: 1 Thanked: 5 times in 5 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: Ch. 12 - Reason Embattled
There is a duplicate chapter 12 thread with two posts. I copy them here:
Megaerra:
Re: Scalia's speech -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jacoby opens the last chapter of _Freethinkers_ with a discussion of Antonin Scalia's speech "God's Justice and Ours", delivered to the University Of Chicago Divinity School in January 2002 . Justice Scalia's speech starts about 1/10 of the way down the page. I've included the speech at the bottom of my message.
Seems to me that Jacoby misrepresents Scalia's message by quoting him out of context.
For example, from his statement that the Constitution is "not living but dead -- or, as I prefer to put it, enduring. It means today not what current society (much less the Court) thinks it ought to mean, but what it meant when it was adopted." She claims that this leads to the conclusion that, for example, "courts should be free to hand down death sentences for grand theft auto, the modern equivalent of horse theft." But that isn't Scalia's point. His point is that the judge's job is to interpret the law *as it was written*. It's the *legislator's* job to adapt the law to fit modern sensibilities. So if, for example, the death penalty is to be restricted or terminated, it should be the legislature that enacts new laws on the subject, not the judiciary who reinterprets existing laws.
Another interesting statement from Scalia's speech: "Thus, my difficulty with Roe v. Wade is a legal rather than a moral one. I do not believe
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 3552 Location: NJ
Thanks: 1 Thanked: 5 times in 5 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: Ch. 12 - Reason Embattled
LanDroid:
This part of Scalia's speech seems dangerous.
Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It seems to me that the reaction of people of faith to this tendency of democracy to obscure the divine authority behind government should be not resignation to it but resolution to combat it as effectively as possible, and a principal way of combating it, in my view, is constant public reminder that
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum
Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.
Support BookTalk.org
BookTalk.org is being upgraded to a totally new design. This upgrade is expensive. Any support would be VERY helpful! See who supports us.
Make a donation
PEOPLE PAYING FOR OUR UPGRADE:
• afv - $10 May
• LevV - $50 March
• Dexter - $10 March
• supernova38 - $25 March
• Oblivion - $20 March
• jheimlich - $20 February
• Robert Tulip - $50 February
• giselle - $50 January
Children here need worming
regularly, and I think I
need to buy more worming
tablets, so while my friends
sit on the beach, I have to
catch bush taxis up to the… more
The children have a long way
to walk to the nearest primary
school. At the moment they are
in temporary accommodation,
with volunteer teachers. There
is community land available,
a… more
The price of The 12th Disciple
has been updated to $3.99 for
Kindle readers. The book is
still available for free to
borrow for Amazon Prime
members. To be
competitive, and s… more
The 12th Disciple has been
reviewed by two different
people on Amazon. They
purchased the Kindle edition;
one in the US, one in the
UK. One review was
5-stars (US) and the oth… more
I'd like to say I've
been reading Harry Potter
since the day the world renown
series appeared on the
scene. Unfortunately,
the truth is I began reading
Harry Potter… more
Easter teaches many of us the
importance of redemption and
resurrection. Regardless of
what faith people follow, the
story of Jesus Christ has been
told in many languages in many
c… more
Our Book Talk will begin on
Wednesday, May 2nd. I look
forward to hearing about your
learning and classroom
experiences with Number Talks
as it all unfolds...
NONOPPOSITIONAL NONVIOLENCE
“The minute you conquer the
fear of death, at that moment
you are free. I submit to you
that if a man hasnÂ’t
discovered something that he
will die f… more
Yesterday, when I went to feed
Jeni the donkey, I noticed
swarms of bees entering
EbrimaÂ’s house through the
cracks in the door. We both
had a look, but he didnÂ’t
open his door… more
Whether you want to implement
number talks but are unsure of
how to begin or have
experience but want more
guidance in crafting
purposeful problems, this
dynamic multimedia resourc… more
Do you feel entitled? For
years I have listened to and,
in some instances, complained
that some people in America
feel entitled. For years I
have watched as these people
are portra… more
On Fat Tuesday and Ash
Wednesday of 2012, The 12th
Disciple was free to Kindle
users on both days. In all,
about 550 worldwide Kindle
users downloaded a copy of the
book.
‘Sacred Are the Brave’ a
collection of short stories
about the nonviolent
revolutions 1986-1989 is now
available in Kindle. Each of
the nine stories has
characters who are just
… more
The Weekend TrippersÂ’ is the
true story of Rfn Ted Taylor
and his part in the heroic
last stand in Calais May 1940.
The Weekend Trippers is based
on TedÂ’s diaries written at
the… more
Tell your friends when to meet you in the BookTalk.org Chat Room.
If you enjoy business bestsellers and would like to expand your business knowledge check out the quality book summaries offered by the world's leading book summary company.
BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.
Tweet This Topic
