Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME ENTER FORUMS OUR BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:35 am

<< Week of December 05, 2016 >>
Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday
5 Day Month

6 Day Month

7 Day Month

8 Day Month

9 Day Month

10 Day Month

11 Day Month





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 4 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 
Ch. 11, No Wonder 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book General

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2517
Location: New Jersey
Thanks: 557
Thanked: 448 times in 357 posts
Gender: Female

Post Ch. 11, No Wonder
THE TIN DRUM, Gunter Grass

Book One, Chapter 11
No Wonder



Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:11 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Sophomore


Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 261
Location: Wheaton, Illinois, USA
Thanks: 26
Thanked: 34 times in 31 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Ch. 11, No Wonder
Grass sprinkles around some tong-in-cheek comments that make reading this fun. And serve to keep me reading carefully. Here are two:

"... the taxi stood waiting in clear to partly cloudy weather."
"... mounted the plaster clouds, knocking over flowers in the mid-price range ..."

This is the chapter that shows us Oskar will remain an atheist. He puts Christ to the test and Christ fails. A few interesting quotes:

"... I asked Satan within me, 'Did you make it through?'
"... the congregation attempted to slip their strings of sin with bead after bead of sinfully tawdry jewels through the lattice and into his priestly ear."
"I thanked Satan inside me for having survived the baptism and for providing me with an antidote that permitted me to stride across the flagstone of the Church of the Sacred Heart as a blasphemer, but still unbowed."

So, Oskar's atheism is confirmed, just as some Christian children are confirmed, through ceremony, prayer, and reliance on an indwelling spirit.


_________________
--Gary

"Freedom is feeling easy in your harness" --Robert Frost


Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:47 am
Profile Email
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Getting Comfortable


Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7
Thanks: 1
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Ch. 11, No Wonder
I love it when Oskar demands that a miracle take place, then "patiently" waits an overlong time, then gets fed up and convinced, as you have nicely excerpted, Gary.

Ah, his self-justification is limitless.

But at first I was upset by Oskar calling on Satan. I mean, jeesh, Oskar is a nice, human, suffering little guy. What gives? Is he getting serious? But then I decided that Oskar does not call on Satan to to be wickedly evil, but rather just to add to the pedestal of self-justification upon which he rises. That is, he cares no more about things Satanic than he does does about being a naughty little boy. Everything, it seems, is subordinate to his ego. The actual facts of the matter are irrelevant, barely worth noting. Is Oskar, or one of Oskar's selves, a psychopath, with the literal inability to feel human emotion and right vs. wrong?

We all have selective memory. I do, to a fault. Does Oskar represent Germans (or all people) who had the far more rare, highly developed and much sought after "selective psycopathy"?

(Aside: we live in Germany and my wife just took the USO trip to Munich and on the way back they stopped at one of Munich's suburbs called Dachau. There are houses right next to the preserved entrance to the compound and museum. Man, who would want to live THERE? Yet hundreds live within direct view of that place of horror. It is your home, after all. Is there "selective blindness"?)

And regardless of the 'deep inner meaning' of the scenes, the visual imagery really is memorable and funny, or at least fun. Oskar does so many outrageous things - he seems to have more fun that we normal humans do. He is a risk-taker, and smart as a whip, and coldly calculating, yet in touch with his inner emotions at the same time. What a character!



Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:33 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book General

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2517
Location: New Jersey
Thanks: 557
Thanked: 448 times in 357 posts
Gender: Female

Post Re: Ch. 11, No Wonder
This is one strange chapter! And true to form, the wit of Grass comes out during the most important passages.


The entire chapter is full of memorable images and passages. This quote is taken right after Oskar is baptized:

Quote:
. . . and I asked the Satan within me; “Did you get through it all right?” Satan jumped up and down and whispered; “Did you see those church windows? All glass, all glass!
,(page 137).

Oskar did not have his powerful voice at the time of his baptism, he also did not have his tin drum at this time. I see the narrator struggling with his own faith here. Although the chapter does gives the reader a fantastic image of the workings of Oskar reasoning and how he lost his faith, there may be events that happen to the narrator later in his life that affected his belief system, and the narrator chose to introduce it here, while Oskar is a baby. I almost feel that the narrator sees himself as being doomed, or damned from birth.

During the baptism of Oskar it is Jan who vocalizes Oskar’s renouncing of Satan. Oskar wants to shake his head, no, I do not renounce him. Satan has the connotation of evilness and wickedness. The narrator is telling this tale as an adult. Something happens to make this narrator believe he is damned and he may be trying to convince not only himself, but the reader as well, that he was born evil. This would take control away from the narrator for any bad deeds he may have committed during his life. The narrator gives me the impression that he feels he is truly an evil and bad person. This is kinda sad. I’m feeling sympathy for both Oskar and the narrator, because I am seeing them blend a bit more.



Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:13 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 4 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:

BookTalk.org Newsletter 



Site Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
IDEAS FOR WHAT TO READ:
Bestsellers
Book Awards
• Book Reviews
• Online Books
• Team Picks
Newspaper Book Sections

WHERE TO BUY BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

BEHIND THE BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

Featured Books

Books by New Authors


*

FACTS is a select group of active BookTalk.org members passionate about promoting Freethought, Atheism, Critical Thinking and Science.

Apply to join FACTS
See who else is in FACTS







BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.



Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2016. All rights reserved.
Display Pagerank