Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:00 pm

<< Week of December 19, 2014 >>
Friday Saturday Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday
19 Day Month

20 Day Month

21 Day Month

22 Day Month

23 Day Month

24 Day Month

25 Day Month





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 4 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 
Ch. 11, No Wonder 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book General

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2503
Location: New Jersey
Thanks: 540
Thanked: 434 times in 346 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United States (us)

Post Ch. 11, No Wonder
THE TIN DRUM, Gunter Grass

Book One, Chapter 11
No Wonder



Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:11 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Sophomore


Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 261
Location: Wheaton, Illinois, USA
Thanks: 26
Thanked: 34 times in 31 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Ch. 11, No Wonder
Grass sprinkles around some tong-in-cheek comments that make reading this fun. And serve to keep me reading carefully. Here are two:

"... the taxi stood waiting in clear to partly cloudy weather."
"... mounted the plaster clouds, knocking over flowers in the mid-price range ..."

This is the chapter that shows us Oskar will remain an atheist. He puts Christ to the test and Christ fails. A few interesting quotes:

"... I asked Satan within me, 'Did you make it through?'
"... the congregation attempted to slip their strings of sin with bead after bead of sinfully tawdry jewels through the lattice and into his priestly ear."
"I thanked Satan inside me for having survived the baptism and for providing me with an antidote that permitted me to stride across the flagstone of the Church of the Sacred Heart as a blasphemer, but still unbowed."

So, Oskar's atheism is confirmed, just as some Christian children are confirmed, through ceremony, prayer, and reliance on an indwelling spirit.


_________________
--Gary

"Freedom is feeling easy in your harness" --Robert Frost


Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:47 am
Profile Email
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Getting Comfortable


Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7
Thanks: 1
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Ch. 11, No Wonder
I love it when Oskar demands that a miracle take place, then "patiently" waits an overlong time, then gets fed up and convinced, as you have nicely excerpted, Gary.

Ah, his self-justification is limitless.

But at first I was upset by Oskar calling on Satan. I mean, jeesh, Oskar is a nice, human, suffering little guy. What gives? Is he getting serious? But then I decided that Oskar does not call on Satan to to be wickedly evil, but rather just to add to the pedestal of self-justification upon which he rises. That is, he cares no more about things Satanic than he does does about being a naughty little boy. Everything, it seems, is subordinate to his ego. The actual facts of the matter are irrelevant, barely worth noting. Is Oskar, or one of Oskar's selves, a psychopath, with the literal inability to feel human emotion and right vs. wrong?

We all have selective memory. I do, to a fault. Does Oskar represent Germans (or all people) who had the far more rare, highly developed and much sought after "selective psycopathy"?

(Aside: we live in Germany and my wife just took the USO trip to Munich and on the way back they stopped at one of Munich's suburbs called Dachau. There are houses right next to the preserved entrance to the compound and museum. Man, who would want to live THERE? Yet hundreds live within direct view of that place of horror. It is your home, after all. Is there "selective blindness"?)

And regardless of the 'deep inner meaning' of the scenes, the visual imagery really is memorable and funny, or at least fun. Oskar does so many outrageous things - he seems to have more fun that we normal humans do. He is a risk-taker, and smart as a whip, and coldly calculating, yet in touch with his inner emotions at the same time. What a character!



Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:33 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book General

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2503
Location: New Jersey
Thanks: 540
Thanked: 434 times in 346 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Ch. 11, No Wonder
This is one strange chapter! And true to form, the wit of Grass comes out during the most important passages.


The entire chapter is full of memorable images and passages. This quote is taken right after Oskar is baptized:

Quote:
. . . and I asked the Satan within me; “Did you get through it all right?” Satan jumped up and down and whispered; “Did you see those church windows? All glass, all glass!
,(page 137).

Oskar did not have his powerful voice at the time of his baptism, he also did not have his tin drum at this time. I see the narrator struggling with his own faith here. Although the chapter does gives the reader a fantastic image of the workings of Oskar reasoning and how he lost his faith, there may be events that happen to the narrator later in his life that affected his belief system, and the narrator chose to introduce it here, while Oskar is a baby. I almost feel that the narrator sees himself as being doomed, or damned from birth.

During the baptism of Oskar it is Jan who vocalizes Oskar’s renouncing of Satan. Oskar wants to shake his head, no, I do not renounce him. Satan has the connotation of evilness and wickedness. The narrator is telling this tale as an adult. Something happens to make this narrator believe he is damned and he may be trying to convince not only himself, but the reader as well, that he was born evil. This would take control away from the narrator for any bad deeds he may have committed during his life. The narrator gives me the impression that he feels he is truly an evil and bad person. This is kinda sad. I’m feeling sympathy for both Oskar and the narrator, because I am seeing them blend a bit more.



Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:13 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 4 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:


BookTalk.org Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Featured Book Suggestions
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
    

Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.

Featured Books

Poll

Yes  83%  [5]
No  16%  [1]
Total votes: 6

Books by New Authors

Visual Help for Getting Started


Top Posters

Of all time: Chris OConnor (14266), Interbane (5668), DWill (4990), stahrwe (4610), Robert Tulip (4318), Mr. Pessimistic (3542), johnson1010 (3343), geo (3313), ant (3159), Penelope (2971), Saffron (2859), Suzanne (2503), Frank 013 (2021), Dissident Heart (1796), bleachededen (1680), President Camacho (1614), Ophelia (1543), Dexter (1465), youkrst (1386), tat tvam asi (1298)

Of the last 24 hrs: geo (4), Flann 5 (4), Robert Tulip (4), Cattleman (3), Chris OConnor (2), Crystalline (2), DWill (2), johnson1010 (1), Taylor (1), LanDroid (1), Gnostic Bishop (1), Interbane (1), bikenet13 (1)




BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICY

BOOK FORUMS FOR ALL BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
King Henry IV, Part 1 - by William ShakespeareAtheist Mind, Humanist Heart - by Lex Bayer and John FigdorSense and Goodness Without God - by Richard CarrierFrankenstein - by Mary ShelleyThe Big Questions - by Simon BlackburnScience Was Born of Christianity - by Stacy TrasancosThe Happiness Hypothesis - by Jonathan HaidtA Game of Thrones - by George R. R. MartinTempesta's Dream - by Vincent LoCocoWhy Nations Fail - by Daron Acemoglu and James RobinsonThe Drowning Girl - Caitlin R. KiernanThe Consolations of the Forest - by Sylvain TessonThe Complete Heretic's Guide to Western Religion: The Mormons - by David FitzgeraldA Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - by James JoyceThe Divine Comedy - by Dante AlighieriThe Magic of Reality - by Richard DawkinsDubliners - by James JoyceMy Name Is Red - by Orhan PamukThe World Until Yesterday - by Jared DiamondThe Man Who Was Thursday - by by G. K. ChestertonThe Better Angels of Our Nature by Steven PinkerLord Jim by Joseph ConradThe Hobbit by J. R. R. TolkienThe Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas AdamsAtlas Shrugged by Ayn RandThinking, Fast and Slow - by Daniel KahnemanThe Righteous Mind - by Jonathan HaidtWorld War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War by Max BrooksMoby Dick: or, the Whale by Herman MelvilleA Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer EganLost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book Selections

Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2014. All rights reserved.
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca
Display Pagerank