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Ch. 1 - A Parade in Erhenrang 
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Post Re: Ch. 1 - A Parade in Erhenrang
The masculine/feminine dichotomy is certainly central to the book, and some aspects of her treatment of it were probably explosive at the time it was written. But probably because of my own point of view, the themes of exile and foreignness struck me most forcefully. (I've been living abroad for 15 years.) In this first chapter, Genly Ai is spectacularly ignorant of the culture, particularly shifgrethor, and misunderstands much of what happens during this day because he is projecting his own assumptions on others. Living in a country for two years is not, after all, enough to understand the people.

Ai dislikes Estraven so much here ("I suspect Estraven made [the saying] up; it has his stamp." E. is faithless, inscrutable, has no loyalties at all) that it made me dislike Ai on the first reading. He describes Estraven here as "cautious, ironic, as if aware that I see and judge as an alien" -- as Ai admits he does. As an ethnologist, he is aware that he is seeing people wrong, trying to force them into "those categories so irrelevant to his nature and so essential to my own", but he can't help it. This leads to his fatal blundering -- he completely misunderstands everything Estraven says at dinner because he is repelled, really, by Estraven's difference from himself.

I had two questions here though. Why is the intriguing between Tibe and Estraven called effeminate? I've seen that kind of manouvering in business meetings. And why should Ai have known that the dinner invitation meant that Estraven was no longer his patron?

The color discussion is interesting, but this was the first time I have come across an association between yellow and femininity, I think. Can you give me an example?



Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:36 pm
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Post Re: Ch. 1 - A Parade in Erhenrang
MargaretL wrote:
The color discussion is interesting, but this was the first time I have come across an association between yellow and femininity, I think. Can you give me an example?


Yellow is more associated with the feminine in Eastern cultures, (esp. Japan), but there are two examples in Western culture that more or less pop out at us. One is the sun (in German, it is feminine whereas the moon assumes masculine gender), the other (okay, this is banal, but......) "The Yellow Rose of Texas" song. Actually there are heraldic color symbols for the feminine and yellow is associated with brightness and clarity as well, not only the negative aspects I listed above.


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Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:43 am
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Post Re: Ch. 1 - A Parade in Erhenrang
MargaretL wrote:
. . .This leads to his fatal blundering -- he completely misunderstands everything Estraven says at dinner because he is repelled, really, by Estraven's difference from himself.

I had two questions here though. Why is the intriguing between Tibe and Estraven called effeminate? I've seen that kind of manouvering in business meetings. And why should Ai have known that the dinner invitation meant that Estraven was no longer his patron?


Later in the story Estraven admits that he has done nothing right and everything wrong. It may not be so apparent this early in the book, but Ai, too, is doing nothing right. His biggest failure I think is in misjudging Estraven's character which is apparent in how much he distrusts/dislikes him. An inherent flaw in his approach is the failure in understanding that his own masculine/feminine values don't work on this planet, and we see this time and again, especially with his annoyance with what he perceives as effeminate ways of the Gethenians. As you say, he also perceives Estraven's lack of loyalty, which we see later as being dead wrong. In fact, Estraven makes a great speech in Ch. 15 related to the notion of loyalty to one's country. I hope I'm not spoiling anything by posting it here.

"How does one hate a country, or love one? Tibe talks about it; I lack the trick of it. I know people, I know towns, farms, hills and rivers and rocks, I know how the sun at sunset in autumn falls on the side of a certain plowland in the hills; but what is the sense of giving a boundary to all of that, of giving it a name and ceasing to love where the name ceases to apply?" (pg. 212)

As for your second question, I seem to recall Ai believing there is some breach of protocol when Estraven invites him to dinner, but I can't find it.


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Post Re: Ch. 1 - A Parade in Erhenrang
Yes, she makes some wonderful points about patriotism. In the first chapter Estraven calls it not the love of one’s country, but fear of the Other. At the end of the book, Ai wonders: “not for the first time, what patriotism is, what the love of country truly consists of, how that yearning loyalty that had shaken my friend's voice arises: and how so real a love can become, too often, so foolish and vile a bigotry? Where does it go wrong?" A question just as relevant today as it was in 1969 when the book was written.

In the intro to this discussion there was the observation that the genre to which this book belongs “has not aged well”. Certainly true, but to a large extent this book has escaped the moorings of its time. But in the question of patriotism, Le Guin comes down firmly on the side of hopefulness: the Gethens will unite as one people when they join the Ekumen, and this will be (for the most part, though even Ai has some doubts) a Good Thing. She arrives at this conclusion in her other Hainish books, too (none of which achieve the depth or complexity of this one, IMHO).

This hopefulness, alas, is the only thing in the book that strikes me as somewhat dated. I read Stuart Brand and Buckminster Fuller (though not until the 80s), wished for a world without borders and the interconnectedness of all things and all that; the last decade or two have rendered these ideas as naïve, for the time being at least.

Ai is naïve, in many ways. In the first chapter his naiveté takes the form of ignoring his ignorance: he sees animosity between Tibe and Estraven as an ethnologist, but is not interested enough to register that it affects him directly; out of anger, he refuses to ask Estraven what he means at dinner, assuming to understand his motives. Ai has another kind of naiveté, too, which Estraven talks about later, in Ch 11: “his innocence reveals a discipline of knowledge and a largeness of purpose that awes me.” Well, it’s a lovely dream. In 1969 it probably even seemed possible.



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Post Re: Ch. 1 - A Parade in Erhenrang
MargaretL wrote:
Yes, she makes some wonderful points about patriotism. In the first chapter Estraven calls it not the love of one’s country, but fear of the Other. At the end of the book, Ai wonders: “not for the first time, what patriotism is, what the love of country truly consists of, how that yearning loyalty that had shaken my friend's voice arises: and how so real a love can become, too often, so foolish and vile a bigotry? Where does it go wrong?" A question just as relevant today as it was in 1969 when the book was written.

In the intro to this discussion there was the observation that the genre to which this book belongs “has not aged well”. Certainly true, but to a large extent this book has escaped the moorings of its time. But in the question of patriotism, Le Guin comes down firmly on the side of hopefulness: the Gethens will unite as one people when they join the Ekumen, and this will be (for the most part, though even Ai has some doubts) a Good Thing. She arrives at this conclusion in her other Hainish books, too (none of which achieve the depth or complexity of this one, IMHO).

This hopefulness, alas, is the only thing in the book that strikes me as somewhat dated. I read Stuart Brand and Buckminster Fuller (though not until the 80s), wished for a world without borders and the interconnectedness of all things and all that; the last decade or two have rendered these ideas as naïve, for the time being at least.

Ai is naïve, in many ways. In the first chapter his naiveté takes the form of ignoring his ignorance: he sees animosity between Tibe and Estraven as an ethnologist, but is not interested enough to register that it affects him directly; out of anger, he refuses to ask Estraven what he means at dinner, assuming to understand his motives. Ai has another kind of naiveté, too, which Estraven talks about later, in Ch 11: “his innocence reveals a discipline of knowledge and a largeness of purpose that awes me.” Well, it’s a lovely dream. In 1969 it probably even seemed possible.


There is an interesting scene with the king at the end of the story. Following his journey, both literal and figurative, Ai now sees the king with much greater understanding.

"I sat down across the hearth from Argaven, and saw his face in the light of the flames. He looked unwell, and old. He looked like a woman who has lost her baby, like a man who has lost his son." (pg. 291)

And then when the discussion turns to the now dead Estraven, Le Guin once again returns to this theme of patriotism with Argaven wondering why Estraven has betrayed him.

Quote:
"You'll tell me that was not betrayal?" [Argaven said.]

"It was not. He knew that, whichever nation first made alliance with the Ekumen, the other would follow soon: as it will . . . He loved his country very dearly, sir, but he did not serve it , or you. He served the master I serve.

"The Ekumen?" said the king, startled.

"No, Mankind."


(pg. 293)

Great book. I just finished it and I could easily read it again. In fact, I probably should make a point of it some day. The sacrifices made by both Ai and Estraven to a larger purpose is inspiring, although I don't think Le Guin ever really helps us understand Ai's motivations very well. We know he has volunteered for this mission, is devoting his life to it. But is it for the Ekumen or is it for himself or for the Gethemians that he does it?

I recently finished Richard Dawkins' The Selfish Gene and The Extended Phenotype and I find myself connecting Ai's and Estraven's "largeness of purpose" to the sense of altruism Dawkins suggests can be taken as a conscious choice if we can only rise above our selfish nature and overrule the programming of our genes.


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Post Re: Ch. 1 - A Parade in Erhenrang
I just read the first chapter so here goes!

As far as color, I think Le Guin uses it to enhance the theme of duality, in sexuality, personality, as well as the social aspect. Instead of using purple, the most common color used for royalty, she surrounds Argaven in red and Estraven mentions several times that he doesn't consider the king sane, nor thinking in the way of a rational man, but as the the necessary mouthpiece for a country. However, the king wears yellow during the parade (a very happy energized color) but his living quarters are in red, as is the city he rules over. Perhaps Le Guin means Argaven to be a fairly optimistic character with secretly optimistic hopes for his future and that of his people, but the his house and his city (perhaps his country?) is surrounded in red (which I used with her reference to the blood in the joints, and therefore I see the city being severe and bound to it's traditions and past). Although he wishes to change, maybe the weight of tradition makes him hesitate?

I know I'm overreading into everything and making alot of obvious

Tibe is heavily associated with yellow, which I personally associate with energy, but it's focused on his teeth, signifinying uncleanliness. I would take that to show Tibe as heavily motivated, but in a weasly, negative way. He smiles often, flashing his teeth as a predator would do. He is obviously unsincere with his gestures, such as his dialogue with Estraven at the parade, and mentioning to Ai that he "intended" to give him a ride, but withdrawing the gesture in the same sentance. He practically yells at everyone that he intends to stab them in the back, without remorse, and with lots of secret humour for himself.

That Ai perceives several exchanges concerning Estraven as "feminine", when they might simply be subtle, intrigued me. I thought, as an ethnologist, Ai might not catergorize things in such a stereotypical way. But then I remember he'd been on the planet for two years. Perhaps when he first arrived he tried to see it without prejudice, but is now growing weary and resorting to stereotypes to simply make things easier. Perhaps he is viewing feminine overtures more significantly in the men of this planet than that of his own because he knows that they have the potential to be fully female. Maybe at this point the androgynous nature of the people of this planet unsettles him so much he is clinging to any signal of a defined sexuality.

I know I'm overreading everything and making alot of obvious statements, but this is the first book discussion I've ever had! Lol, I appologize if I went on alot of unrelated tangents!


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Post Re: Ch. 1 - A Parade in Erhenrang
3amd5.Royo wrote:
I just read the first chapter so here goes!

As far as color, I think Le Guin uses it to enhance the theme of duality, in sexuality, personality, as well as the social aspect. Instead of using purple, the most common color used for royalty, she surrounds Argaven in red and Estraven mentions several times that he doesn't consider the king sane, nor thinking in the way of a rational man, but as the the necessary mouthpiece for a country. However, the king wears yellow during the parade (a very happy energized color) but his living quarters are in red, as is the city he rules over. Perhaps Le Guin means Argaven to be a fairly optimistic character with secretly optimistic hopes for his future and that of his people, but the his house and his city (perhaps his country?) is surrounded in red (which I used with her reference to the blood in the joints, and therefore I see the city being severe and bound to it's traditions and past). Although he wishes to change, maybe the weight of tradition makes him hesitate?

I know I'm overreading into everything and making alot of obvious

Tibe is heavily associated with yellow, which I personally associate with energy, but it's focused on his teeth, signifinying uncleanliness. I would take that to show Tibe as heavily motivated, but in a weasly, negative way. He smiles often, flashing his teeth as a predator would do. He is obviously unsincere with his gestures, such as his dialogue with Estraven at the parade, and mentioning to Ai that he "intended" to give him a ride, but withdrawing the gesture in the same sentance. He practically yells at everyone that he intends to stab them in the back, without remorse, and with lots of secret humour for himself.

That Ai perceives several exchanges concerning Estraven as "feminine", when they might simply be subtle, intrigued me. I thought, as an ethnologist, Ai might not catergorize things in such a stereotypical way. But then I remember he'd been on the planet for two years. Perhaps when he first arrived he tried to see it without prejudice, but is now growing weary and resorting to stereotypes to simply make things easier. Perhaps he is viewing feminine overtures more significantly in the men of this planet than that of his own because he knows that they have the potential to be fully female. Maybe at this point the androgynous nature of the people of this planet unsettles him so much he is clinging to any signal of a defined sexuality.

I know I'm overreading everything and making alot of obvious statements, but this is the first book discussion I've ever had! Lol, I appologize if I went on alot of unrelated tangents!


I like the way you've noticed color as playing a large role. I didn't look at it that way, so this concept is fresh and interesting. I also think it would be helpful for you to know that yellow is often associated with cowards, or as being cowardly. So maybe Tibe is described in so much yellow because he is cowardly, and I think we see that in the conniving, backstabbing kind of ways in which he tries to take control of the throne. Maybe that sheds some new light for you? I hope it does, and I really do find your color read of the book to be new and fascinating. Keep reading! :)

Edit: Sorry, now that I read a few of the posts above you (I was behind in this thread, yikes!), I see that you didn't introduce the color idea, but I like that you were looking for it and what you took from it. So don't be discouraged that I miscredited you with a good idea, because you still put forth great ideas. ;)



Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:58 am
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