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Mr. Pessimistic 
Assistant Professor
Silver Contributor
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 3446
Gender: 
Location: NJ - www.myspace.com/mrpessimistic
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 Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: British Teacher guilty for naming Teddy Bear "Muhammad&
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http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,5143,695231811,00.html
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KHARTOUM, Sudan — A British teacher in Sudan was convicted Thursday of the less-serious charge of insulting Islam for letting her pupils name a teddy bear "Muhammad," and was sentenced to 15 days in prison and deportation to Britain, one of her lawyers said.
Gillian Gibbons could have received 40 lashes and six months in prison in the case if found guilty of the more serious charge of inciting religious hatred and given the maximum penalty. |
Inciting religious hatred. 40 Lashes. How ridiculous. Over a Delusion.
I am going to name my sex doll Muhammad H. Jesus.
Mr. P. |
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Mr. Pessimistic
Assistant Professor
Silver Contributor
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 3446
Gender:
Location: NJ - www.myspace.com/mrpessimistic
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: Update:Calls in Sudan for execution of Briton
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So now they want this teacher executed? And SHE is spreading religious hatred. I see it as religious hatred and the inherent intolerance of religion being the bully here.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071130/ap_on_re_af/sudan_british_teacher
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KHARTOUM, Sudan - Thousands of Sudanese, many armed with clubs and knives, rallied Friday in a central square and demanded the execution of a British teacher convicted of insulting Islam for allowing her students to name a teddy bear "Muhammad."
In response to the demonstration, teacher Gillian Gibbons was moved from the women's prison near Khartoum to a secret location for her safety, her lawyer said.
The protesters streamed out of mosques after Friday sermons, as pickup trucks with loudspeakers blared messages against Gibbons, who was sentenced Thursday to 15 days in prison and deportation. She avoided the more serious punishment of 40 lashes.
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Mr. P. |
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Constance963
Intern
Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:46 pm Post subject:
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People are just nuts. You would THINK that religion would teach you love and tolerance.....
And how exactly does the punishment fit the crime here, if there is even a crime at all? |
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MadArchitect
Joined: 14 Nov 2004
Posts: 2609
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Location: decentralized
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:45 pm Post subject:
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| Constance963 wrote: |
| You would THINK that religion would teach you love and tolerance..... |
Religion might, but political institutions almost never do. And to talk about this incident as though it were simply about religion downplays the fact that she's being accused, tried and punished by a political body that probably has a lot more invested in maintaining a certain kind of status quo than it does in ensuring a particular religious ideal. I'd be willing to bet that if we looked more at the historical and social context (if, for instance, we read some books on the subject), we'd find that the political upheavals of the last 50-100 years have played a huge part in arranging the circumstances that led to this woman's imprisonment and deportation. |
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Niall001
Stupendously Brilliant
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
Posts: 770
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:49 am Post subject:
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| Niggardly. |
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Mr. Pessimistic
Assistant Professor
Silver Contributor
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 3446
Gender:
Location: NJ - www.myspace.com/mrpessimistic
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:56 am Post subject:
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| MadArchitect wrote: |
Religion might, but political institutions almost never do. And to talk about this incident as though it were simply about religion downplays the fact that she's being accused, tried and punished by a political body that probably has a lot more invested in maintaining a certain kind of status quo than it does in ensuring a particular religious ideal. I'd be willing to bet that if we looked more at the historical and social context (if, for instance, we read some books on the subject), we'd find that the political upheavals of the last 50-100 years have played a huge part in arranging the circumstances that led to this woman's imprisonment and deportation. |
Wow Mad, you threw me with this response...it is not usually like you to try to give religion a pass in such matters.
It may be a governing body that has held up this law, but the law is steeped in the religion of the area and the extreme adherence to that religion. Someone is getting punished for naming a teddy bear. The reason is because many people believe in the myth of Muhammad and have raised that one name above any sense of human decency in situations like this. It is an arbitrary law based on make believe.
The people calling for her execution are NOT the governing body, but people of Sudan who believe in the BS that is Muhammad and their faith.
Please Mad, think about it. When the politics of a nation are so intertwined with religious ideals and beliefs, you cannot separate the two just because you feel religion is such a wonderful thing. This is all about religious belief gone haywire.
Mr. P. |
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Constance963
Intern
Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:51 am Post subject:
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[quote="MadArchitect"][quote="Constance963"]You would THINK that religion would teach you love and tolerance.....[/quote]
Religion might, but political institutions almost never do. And to talk about this incident as though it were simply about religion downplays the fact that she's being accused, tried and punished by a political body that probably has a lot more invested in maintaining a certain kind of status quo than it does in ensuring a particular religious ideal. I'd be willing to bet that if we looked more at the historical and social context (if, for instance, we read some books on the subject), we'd find that the political upheavals of the last 50-100 years have played a huge part in arranging the circumstances that led to this woman's imprisonment and deportation.[/quote]
I was not trying to downplay anything. I was just making a comment about misterpessimistic's quote about people streaming out of mosques and going right from their religious services to screaming for someone's murder. It was simply ironic to me that you come right from prayer to wanting someone dead. |
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MadArchitect
Joined: 14 Nov 2004
Posts: 2609
Gender:
Location: decentralized
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:42 pm Post subject:
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| Constance963 wrote: |
| I was not trying to downplay anything. |
No, I didn't think you were. But I do think it's important to note that the action being taken here has serious political entanglements, and that might go some way towards explaining the macabre contrast between coming from prayer and going to denounce.
| Mr. P wrote: |
| It may be a governing body that has held up this law, but the law is steeped in the religion of the area and the extreme adherence to that religion. |
What do you mean by "steeped"? It would be really easy to assume that the government demands religious uniformity because it's full of zealous believers, but again, I'd be willing to bet that a historical inquiry into the development of the government would reveal that, at some crucial historical juncture, a more liberal, secular system was rejected for political reasons. (And a likely bet for when that juncture occurred would be the post-WWI period, or even before, during the Anglo-Sudanese conflict, when imperial Britain was making a colonial state of the Sudan. If either of those is the case, the Sudan wouldn't be the first territory to have stifled a liberalizing impulse in order to consolidate local support against the encroachment of some external political body.) There have, after all, been very tolerant Islamic governments. Something distinguishes the tolerant Islamic nations from those that are not, and it doesn't seem to me to be anything in the religion itself.
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| The reason is because many people believe in the myth of Muhammad and have raised that one name above any sense of human decency in situations like this. It is an arbitrary law based on make believe. |
Think whatever you want about the foundation of the religion, the law in question is not arbitrary. Someone benefits from it. It serves a particular function in that society, and that's what I mean when I say that there is a political motivation at work here. The government in question has a vested political interest in maintaining a state religion. Demanding uniformity probably serves to prevent critiques of the status quo, or something along those lines. And because they live in a context where religion is highly politicized, it's difficult to say in which spirit the protesters from your second article were acting.
If it were simply a matter of the members of a religious institution in an otherwise secular state calling for this woman's execution, I'd certainly have a different opinion on the matter. In that case, I'd be more than willing to cite it as an example of religion spontaneously going very wrong. But the moment a government starts legislating religious values, that complicates how you ought to interpret the facts, just as it would complicate your interpretation of a charitable organization when a known thief is made chief director.
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| When the politics of a nation are so intertwined with religious ideals and beliefs, you cannot separate the two just because you feel religion is such a wonderful thing. This is all about religious belief gone haywire. |
You do see the contradiction in those two sentences, don't you?
I'm not saying that religion doesn't play a part here. But I doubt you'd be seeing this particular scenario if a political body wasn't involved. The fact that they've latched onto this particular instance would probably be telling if we knew more about the situation. Think about all of the time that our government and press have made a total non-issue into three weeks worth of coverage and scrutiny. Little hint here, it's usually when the administration doesn't want you to pay attention to some other, more important issue.
And the fact is, we probably wouldn't have heard this story at all if it didn't have a religious element to it. We're getting this story divorced from its larger context, so it's easy to see how you might take religion as its sole context. The American press loves to print stories about how backwards and totalitarian people are in the Middle East, and we know so little about the political situation in Sudan that the only explanation that immediately occurs to us is the one fact we think we know about it: they're fanatics. Seriously, tell me one thing you knew about Sudanese culture or politics that doesn't involve Islam. |
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Mr. Pessimistic
Assistant Professor
Silver Contributor
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 3446
Gender:
Location: NJ - www.myspace.com/mrpessimistic
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject:
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WOW! POOOOOR religion! I mean, whenever it looks like it is complicit, it turns out, all the time it seems, to be just a tool used by something or someone else. Sorry I ever doubted it.
Mr. P. |
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irishrose
Freshman
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 215
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:33 am Post subject:
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Mad: Seriously, tell me one thing you knew about Sudanese culture or politics that doesn't involve Islam.
Is this a quiz? Does spelling count?
That a lot of the ongoing conflict in Sudan centers on political and economic issues. A large portion of the wealth of the nation is in the hands of the political minority—a situation that will likely always lead to civil strife. But, from what I’ve read, if real peace terms are ever reached, the country has the potential to be very wealthy—at least, easily self-sufficient. And just to clarify, rather than say that’s something I “know” about Sudan, it’s more something that I understand to be true.
But, as far as I can tell, that doesn’t really have anything to do with this story. Actually, when I read about this, I had wished that it would be easy to find some of the primary documents/transcripts. As far as I understand, Khartoum is subject to Sharia law. But I was also under the impression that according to a new, working constitution that was trying to incorporate religious liberty as part of peace negotiations, precautions had been taken to ensure that non-Muslims weren’t adversely affected by Sharia. How in the world that would work, I have absolutely no idea. But, assuming that abuse of the name Muhammad is a matter of violation of Sharia, and assuming that what I had read about the constitutional consideration I guess about a year ago hasn’t since changed, I wonder if those terms in the constitution were argued in the teacher’s defense, and, if they were, why they were not upheld by the court. Damn, that would be a crazy interesting case to get our hands on. |
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