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Frank 013 
Embodiment of Reason
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 Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:26 am Post subject:
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Mad
(Incidentally, I'm addressing you in a separate post because I think you would do well to distance yourself from Frank's position, even if you agree on some specifics. You've been much more willing in the past to at least try to see the other point of view. I certainly don't want to treat the two of you as though your points of view and approaches to the subject were identical, because I think that does you less credit than you deserve.) |
Divide and conquer huh Mad?
Nice try.
I especially like the little slight you threw in at the end there.
Most unkind.
Later |
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:03 am Post subject:
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| KHARTOUM, Sudan - A British teacher jailed for insulting Islam after allowing her students to name a teddy bear Muhammad was released Monday when Sudan's president pardoned her, a British Embassy spokesman said. |
See the rest of the article here
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_re_af/sudan_british_teacher
Well the lady was pardoned, so at least the governmental body has some sense. Now if we could just get the individual fanatics to be as forgiving.
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Mr. Pessimistic
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:07 am Post subject:
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| Frank 013 wrote: |
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| KHARTOUM, Sudan - A British teacher jailed for insulting Islam after allowing her students to name a teddy bear Muhammad was released Monday when Sudan's president pardoned her, a British Embassy spokesman said. |
See the rest of the article here
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_re_af/sudan_british_teacher
Well the lady was pardoned, so at least the governmental body has some sense. Now if we could just get the individual fanatics to be as forgiving.
Later |
Very nice! I saw this and was going to post it. Thanks for beating me to it Frank.
Mr. P. |
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Frank 013
Embodiment of Reason
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:19 am Post subject:
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Mr. P.
Very nice! I saw this and was going to post it. Thanks for beating me to it Frank. |
No sweat
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MadArchitect
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:20 am Post subject:
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| Frank 013 wrote: |
| I’m sorry that I can’t afford to buy a book on every subject that we discuss, and am forced to do my research in other ways. |
The book Mr. P and I were reading was available free online, was less than 200 pages in length, and is routinely cited as one of most concise and reputable histories of the Witch Crazes. Maybe you don't have internet access?
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| You seem to lack a fundamental knowledge of the way things work in the real world and in my opinion it hurts your arguments. |
Why don't you tell me sometime about the real world. Sounds like information I could use.
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| Divide and conquer huh Mad? |
Divide, yes. But conquer is your M.O. I think there's still half a chance that Mr. P can be persuaded to help make this a discussion forum, rather than an extended ideological wrestling match, which is what you seem to prefer. Whether or not he agrees with me on the issue of religion is beside the point. |
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Frank 013
Embodiment of Reason
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject:
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Mad
The book Mr. P and I were reading was available free online, was less than 200 pages in length, and is routinely cited as one of most concise and reputable histories of the Witch Crazes. |
And after reading it you still came to a bad conclusion and looked rather silly by the end of the debate.
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Mad
Why don't you tell me sometime about the real world? Sounds like information I could use. |
Your brain is way too clouded by philosophy, you wouldn’t get it.
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Mad
Divide, yes. But conquer is your M.O. |
So sue me.
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Mad
I think there's still half a chance that Mr. P can be persuaded to help make this a discussion forum, rather than an extended ideological wrestling match, which is what you seem to prefer. |
Hey, you’re the one getting all wound up in a tizzy here; I just agreed with Mr. P. that your actions on this board (despite what you want to call yourself) are not and have not been the actions of a moderate.
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Niall001
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject:
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| Not to interrupt this positively fascinating bout of off-topic naval-gazing, but Frank would you mind telling me the actions of a moderate would look like in your opinion? |
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Frank 013
Embodiment of Reason
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject:
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Niall
Frank would you mind telling me the actions of a moderate would look like in your opinion? |
How about NOT defending religion at every opportunity?
Why not admit, based off of the information available that the Muhammad teddy bear incident is the result of religious intolerance, that it was unjustified, silly and dangerous?
I think a moderate could do that.
Instead we get a plethora of “possible” secular reasons that allow the law to exist, so it can't be the religions fault.
Mad says that he does not feel that it is necessary for him to criticize religion because it is already covered well enough by the atheists.
Apparently he has little or nothing to offer in that category.
Yet he jumps in at every opportunity to defend religion, even when several other theists are already on the case.
I guess Mad does not think much of the other theist’s arguments.
In other words Mad feels the need to defend religion but not to criticize it.
Furthermore his arguments nearly always portray religion as the victim, or its abuse by a secular authority, hence alleviating it of the responsibility for the atrocities carried out in its name.
I think a moderate would accept the atrocities and argue for the good religion does, rather than make a lame attempt at displacing blame.
Just my opinion
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irishrose
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject:
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| Frank wrote: |
| How about NOT defending religion at every opportunity? |
I really think this is where the hang-up is between Frank and Mad, whenever this issue comes up. Frank sees Mad as “defending” religion. And, I think anyway, Mad does not look at what he is doing in the same way. Rather his intention is to get a fuller understanding of the root causes of any issue—all of the causes he can possibly determine—and in trying to say that "it isn’t just religion," Frank hears "it isn’t ever or at all religion. "
Frank, to be perfectly frank, I don’t think of Mad as an apologist in the way you want to paint him. I also think Mad genuinely wants to get at the bottom of whatever issue is being discussed. I think Mad’s arguments in the context of this forum can sometimes come off as though he is defending religion. I think that his comments are inevitable to be read that way if the audience presupposes that that is his intention. But in the end, I think it is absurd in the extreme, to think this issue, or many of the other issues I’ve seen you discuss, comes down to solely (or so significant as to make all other issues irrelevant) a religious matter. And that’s how you seem to approach a lot of this. Certainly, it is how you have approached this discussion.
I think if anyone would truly follow this discussion through with Mad, you’d likely come to a tentative, general consensus of what the underlying issues are. Considering ideological differences, there would likely be differing opinions on the extent of religion’s culpability—at least, I know there probably would be between Mad and I. But then, discovering what those differences are, considering all the shades of gray that inform any world issue, is the point of a discussion forum, isn’t it? And that’s really my point. I know this will read as a defense of Mad, and so be it. But my intention is to defend discourse—because without open, intelligent, considerate debate, we’re all lost.
In the meantime, I’m not sure who you mean by “others” here:
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| I will say this about fault, my opinion of you is based off of that history, so if I (and others) do not think of you as moderate you might want to consider the possibility that apologist is a label of your own making. |
I presume you mean Mr. P., and possibly Chris, though I’m hoping I’m wrong on both counts. But let me personally distance myself from those “others.” |
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Frank 013
Embodiment of Reason
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:25 pm Post subject:
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Irish
In the meantime, I’m not sure who you mean by “others” here:
I presume you mean Mr. P., and possibly Chris, though I’m hoping I’m wrong on both counts. But let me personally distance myself from those “others.” |
I’ll say this; the apologist label was not my doing, even though I agree with it, but I will not speak for anyone else as far as giving names. More than a few people that I have chatted with agree that Mad is no moderate. Most of them have been around for quite a while now and have more experience with Mad’s methods.
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Mr. Pessimistic
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject:
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| Frank 013 wrote: |
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Irish
In the meantime, I’m not sure who you mean by “others” here:
I presume you mean Mr. P., and possibly Chris, though I’m hoping I’m wrong on both counts. But let me personally distance myself from those “others.” |
I’ll say this; the apologist label was not my doing, even though I agree with it, but I will not speak for anyone else as far as giving names. More than a few people that I have chatted with agree that Mad is no moderate. Most of them have been around for quite a while now and have more experience with Mad’s methods.
Later |
Yeah I called Mad an apologist earlier on...but I was using words he used in this same thread. Mayb ehe is not an apologist like Lewis was or others, but I do agree that he defends and tried to reduce the role of religion in almost every instance that has ever come up in my expereince here. It is always more the fault or result of something else.
By Mad's own admission, he witholds his criticism of religion here because he feels that his contributions would heat up an already heated situation. That is kinda the problem as I see it. He witholds criticism and comes on in defense in the topics that do come up. That will naturally tend to make one look like someone defeding religion IMO. No?
If we want honest discussion, no one should hide how they feel or think on a topic. I sure as hell dont, no matter how much intensity that produces here on the forums.
Mr. P. |
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Frank 013
Embodiment of Reason
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject:
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Irish
I really think this is where the hang-up is between Frank and Mad, whenever this issue comes up. Frank sees Mad as “defending” religion. And, I think anyway, Mad does not look at what he is doing in the same way. Rather his intention is to get a fuller understanding of the root causes of any issue—all of the causes he can possibly determine—and in trying to say that "it isn’t just religion," Frank hears "it isn’t ever or at all religion." |
I suppose it’s possible that I am reading more into Mad’s arguments than he is suggesting, but we all already know that religion in situations like this is not solely to blame. The intertwining of religion and government causes too much of what you call gray area.
That is one point that we all agreed on long ago.
But it seems, from my perspective that Mad is continuously pushing for a more secular reason or abuse of religion by secular authorities in an apparent attempt to clear religion of most of the wrong.
And I do not think that those excuses, forgive religion of its role in the matter.
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MadArchitect
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:27 pm Post subject:
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| misterpessimistic wrote: |
| He witholds criticism and comes on in defense in the topics that do come up. That will naturally tend to make one look like someone defeding religion IMO. No? |
In this particular context, I have no doubt that I come across as an apologist. That's because the level of discussion about religion is kept at a very simplistic, black-and-white level, as though religion were constantly on trial. If the horrors of religion weren't a constant discussion point on BookTalk, I'd probably vary my approach a great deal more.
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| If we want honest discussion, no one should hide how they feel or think on a topic. |
It isn't a matter of hiding what I think or feel. It's a matter of responding to the topics raised here. And as I've pointed out hundreds of times, my "defense" of religion (which is really more a critique of politics) is always in response to attacks. It's a subject that I would talk about a lot less in general if it weren't constantly being reiterated by others. I think there's a hell of a lot worth talking about that doesn't have a whole lot to do with religious persecution. It's just all taking a backseat on this forum. |
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MadArchitect
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject:
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| Frank 013 wrote: |
| And I do not think that those excuses, forgive religion of its role in the matter. |
Nor do I -- a point I'm really tired of making. I just don't think it's terribly productive to point out every religious entanglement and leave it at that. Noting the gray area and moving on achieves nothing. A blanket approach like "destroy religion" is unrealistic and unreasonable. A more reasonable approach would be to discuss how to minimize the responsibility religion does play in instances like this, and to also talk about how politics is responsible as well. But you guys just keep linking to articles like this and bitching about the damage done by religion. I'm sure that'll turn out how you want it. The internet, after all, is magic. |
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