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Frank 013 
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 Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject:
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Mad
Actually, we talked about that on the forums, and if I recall correctly, I both sympathized with the artist, defended a particular (positive) interpretation of the piece, and denounced those who took criticism to the extreme of threatening physical violence. Of course, it gets ignored that my position is actually pretty moderate, and certainly never more than when I take a position that is actually in line with what you guys are saying. |
You were talking like there were no examples of religion run amok that did not involve some kind of political influence, I provided one.
And I still do not buy that you are a “moderate” (didn’t it used to be neutral?) when it comes to religion. It seems to me that whenever issues like this arise you try to protect religion by clouding the religious intolerance behind some secular body or another.
And even if that were the case the fact that religion can be used in such a manner is still a serious problem, and does not clear religion from responsibility in the manner.
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Mad
If the defendant were native Sudanese, I'm not sure that the case would a) be as volatile an issue, and b) receive the sort of international attention that would bring it to our notice. Buy most of the people who have commented on the case could give a damn that the Sudanese have an ongoing historical entanglement with the British. |
So you’re saying that their religious society is both fanatic and prejudice? Your really not defending religion very well here Mad.
| Quote: |
Mad
All they see is the conflict between Islam and an apparently secular liberalism, and anyone who insists on a historical perspective is obviously a apologist with a vested interest in giving religion a pass. Dirty theists. |
Actually what we see is what Mr P said… we see people getting punished for ridiculous laws inspired by religious text that we see as ultimately based off of make believe. Things that would not normally be offensive became offensive because of religion.
In addition, your defense of these religious injustices have inspired us to delve much deeper into cases like this in the past, you will note that despite this we maintain our view point. The reasoning is not because we are close minded (as I am sure you want to make it sound) but because there has never been an instance like this that religion did not play an important role in making things worse, in many cases much worse.
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Mr. Pessimistic
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject:
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| Mad wrote: |
| How are those two articles evidence sufficient to convince you of that? There's nothing in them that would discount the importance of Sudanese political history. Personally, I never read a news article and assume that I've gotten even a 10th of the full story. |
I am NOT just talking about this article or this instance. I am talking about other instances of this I have read or heard about. Like the examples I gave of Rushdie and Van Gogh...and other smaller stories of how fanatical these people are about the minutia of their fairy tale. This goes for Christians and all other whackos as well.
| MadArchitect wrote: |
| Mr. P. wrote: |
| But nothing will ever satisfy you on this matter...when a culture's politics and religion are SO entwined, there can never be a clear case of separation on any instance. |
The funny thing is, that's a matter that I had thought, at one point, we agreed on. |
I do agree, but that does not mean that I give religion a pass when I see it causing real life pain based on it's imaginary foundations. In this case, holding a name of a faker so sacred that a real person is punished simply for using a name.
| Mad wrote: |
| I'm practically the only one who actually uses the politics forum to talk about political events that have no religion component -- despite your claim that I'm an apologist, plain and simple. |
I'm sorry...is this not the "Politics, CURRENT EVENTS, and History" forum? This is a current event, which is why I chose to post it here.
Mr. P. |
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MadArchitect
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:30 am Post subject:
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| Frank 013 wrote: |
| And I still do not buy that you are a “moderate” (didn’t it used to be neutral?) when it comes to religion. It seems to me that whenever issues like this arise you try to protect religion by clouding the religious intolerance behind some secular body or another. |
I could care less what you "buy" about my stance. The very fact that you're willing to judge my arguments on the presumption that my motivation is other than what I claim it to be reduces my regard for your opinion of me to practically nil. If you're incapable of trusting me enough to know and say what I'm really about, then there is no chance of us ever reaching an accord or even understanding, and the fault is yours.
And for the record, I haven't been talking about "some secular body or another". I've been talking specifically about political institutions. A great many of those institutions are theocracies, which would preclude them from the category of secular body, but that does not prevent them from acting on the principle that nearly all functioning political bodies act upon. The almost all seek to ensure their own preservation, and a theocracy is no less likely than a secular government to sacrifice its ideals in the hope of securing a broader appeal or stronger hold over the governed.
| Quote: |
| And even if that were the case the fact that religion can be used in such a manner is still a serious problem, and does not clear religion from responsibility in the manner. |
I've never disagreed on that point. The only qualification I'd make is that religion is no different in that regard from any other cultural form. Art can be made into vicious propaganda; language can be made into double-speak and polemic; division of labor can be made into slavery and economic exploitation. Culture is always a coin with two sides, and you cannot enjoy the benefits of one side without incurring the risk that you'll also suffer the consequences of the other.
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| So you’re saying that their religious society is both fanatic and prejudice? Your really not defending religion very well here Mad. |
I'm saying that their society is deeply suspicious of European society, and the British in general, because their involvement with the English has historically been that of the exploited and oppressed to the exploiter and oppressor. So far as I can tell, the Koran says nothing about the British. But the British have made the Sudan a colony, as well as a theater of war. I'm not claiming that the teacher in this case is being tried for being British, but the fact that there is a long-standing undercurrent of animosity between the two cultures may go some distance towards explaining the ferociousness with which the public has denounced her.
And then again, that might not be the case. I'm perfectly willing to admit that I don't know enough about the case to make more of that suggestion than a reasonable conjecture. The point is that it's a possibility that makes sense given what little I know about the history and political circumstances of the Sudan, and to recognize as much is to recognize that there may be more to this situation than the clear-cut assertion that "this is all about religion". To suggest that religion is the only clear cut culprit here seems to me like seizing only only the most superficially obvious aspect of the case as the sole basis for a conclusion.
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| In addition, your defense of these religious injustices have inspired us to delve much deeper into cases like this in the past, you will note that despite this we maintain our view point. |
"We"? When have you delved at my insistence into cases like this in the past? Mr. P was very generous in looking at a book I recommended on the Witch Crazes, but so far as I can tell the only delving you did was on Google, and then you seemed to be looking specifically for sources that would support your point of view.
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| The reasoning is not because we are close minded (as I am sure you want to make it sound) but because there has never been an instance like this that religion did not play an important role in making things worse, in many cases much worse. |
In some of the most egregious modern instances, the role played by religion was that of victim. But you don't seem to like considering those all that much. |
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MadArchitect
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:55 am Post subject:
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[quote="Mr. P]Like the examples I gave of Rushdie and Van Gogh...and other smaller stories of how fanatical these people are about the minutia of their fairy tale.[/quote]
Again, those are all instances of backlash from theocracies -- that is, political institutions with a vested interest in preserving a monolithic religious milieu. Rushdie certainly was in a great deal of mortal danger from specific groups, but if he had really had the billion+ adherents of Islam against him, I doubt he could have survived the fetwah, despite having gone into hiding.
(Incidentally, I'm addressing you in a separate post because I think you would do well to distance yourself from Frank's position, even if you agree on some specifics. You've been much more willing in the past to at least try to see the other point of view. I certainly don't want to treat the two of you as though your points of view and approaches to the subject were identical, because I think that does you less credit than you deserve.)
| Quote: |
| I'm sorry...is this not the "Politics, CURRENT EVENTS, and History" forum? This is a current event, which is why I chose to post it here. |
Mmhmm. I'm not arguing that you shouldn't have posted it here. I'm just wondering why the majority of posts in this forum follow the same pattern. What's depressing is how few people use this forum to talk about any politics, current events or history that don't have to do with the atrocities and injustices perpetrated by religion. Are people on this board really so disinterested in the other things going on in the world? Why did you decide to post about this particular article and not, say, one like this or one like this or one like this or [urlhttp://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071203/ts_afp/australiaclimatekyoto; _ylt=AjM2lM_ewqInkPMCXFRf_mdvaA8F]one like this[/url]. I'm not trying to say that we should only talk about topics that interest me (the above articles were chosen pretty much at random), or that we should steer clear of talking about religion in this forum. But why is that just about the only thing we talk about? And why do we always talk about it from the same perspective, and in the same way? It's tedious, and unproductive, and there are so many other things in the world that demand our attention.
And finally, why bring up a topic at all if you're just going to dismiss any disagreement you might get in reply? I don't post about a topic unless I expect disagreement. I'm looking for it, in fact, as a challenge to my position. But you post a snippet from an article, a link, and some short expression of disapproval, and are entirely uncharitable when someone voices an opposing opinion. That's a stupid way to behave, and not only because it ultimately reduces your thread to something trivial and pointless when it could be, god forbid, and actual discussion. |
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:21 am Post subject:
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Mad
The very fact that you're willing to judge my arguments on the presumption that my motivation is other than what I claim it to be reduces my regard for your opinion of me to practically nil. If you're incapable of trusting me enough to know and say what I'm really about, then there is no chance of us ever reaching an accord or even understanding, and the fault is yours. |
It’s not a presumption… its history.
I will say this about fault, my opinion of you is based off of that history, so if I (and others) do not think of you as moderate you might want to consider the possibility that apologist is a label of your own making.
| Quote: |
Mad
And for the record, I haven't been talking about "some secular body or another". I've been talking specifically about political institutions. |
Ok.
| Quote: |
Mad
I've never disagreed on that point. The only qualification I'd make is that religion is no different in that regard from any other cultural form. Art can be made into vicious propaganda; language can be made into double-speak and polemic; division of labor can be made into slavery and economic exploitation. Culture is always a coin with two sides, and you cannot enjoy the benefits of one side without incurring the risk that you'll also suffer the consequences of the other. |
What I am saying (and I believe Mr. P as well) is that the more of these cultural forms that are intertwined the more problems arise, and that the ridiculous nature of religious beliefs only adds to the problem and causes its own problems as well.
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Mad
I'm saying that their society is deeply suspicious of European society and the British in general, because their involvement with the English has historically been that of the exploited and oppressed to the exploiter and oppressor. So far as I can tell, the Koran says nothing about the British. But the British have made the Sudan a colony, as well as a theater of war. I'm not claiming that the teacher in this case is being tried for being British, but the fact that there is a long-standing undercurrent of animosity between the two cultures may go some distance towards explaining the ferociousness with which the public has denounced her. |
Right… Prejudice.
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Mad
"We"? When have you delved at my insistence into cases like this in the past? Mr. P was very generous in looking at a book I recommended on the Witch Crazes, but so far as I can tell the only delving you did was on Google, and then you seemed to be looking specifically for sources that would support your point of view. |
Gee Mad. I’m sorry that I can’t afford to buy a book on every subject that we discuss, and am forced to do my research in other ways. And for the record I do look at both sides of the argument, I just find yours to be lacking in most cases.
You seem to lack a fundamental knowledge of the way things work in the real world and in my opinion it hurts your arguments.
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:26 am Post subject:
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Mad
(Incidentally, I'm addressing you in a separate post because I think you would do well to distance yourself from Frank's position, even if you agree on some specifics. You've been much more willing in the past to at least try to see the other point of view. I certainly don't want to treat the two of you as though your points of view and approaches to the subject were identical, because I think that does you less credit than you deserve.) |
Divide and conquer huh Mad?
Nice try.
I especially like the little slight you threw in at the end there.
Most unkind.
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:03 am Post subject:
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| KHARTOUM, Sudan - A British teacher jailed for insulting Islam after allowing her students to name a teddy bear Muhammad was released Monday when Sudan's president pardoned her, a British Embassy spokesman said. |
See the rest of the article here
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_re_af/sudan_british_teacher
Well the lady was pardoned, so at least the governmental body has some sense. Now if we could just get the individual fanatics to be as forgiving.
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Mr. Pessimistic
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:07 am Post subject:
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| Frank 013 wrote: |
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| KHARTOUM, Sudan - A British teacher jailed for insulting Islam after allowing her students to name a teddy bear Muhammad was released Monday when Sudan's president pardoned her, a British Embassy spokesman said. |
See the rest of the article here
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_re_af/sudan_british_teacher
Well the lady was pardoned, so at least the governmental body has some sense. Now if we could just get the individual fanatics to be as forgiving.
Later |
Very nice! I saw this and was going to post it. Thanks for beating me to it Frank.
Mr. P. |
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:19 am Post subject:
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Mr. P.
Very nice! I saw this and was going to post it. Thanks for beating me to it Frank. |
No sweat
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MadArchitect
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:20 am Post subject:
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| Frank 013 wrote: |
| I’m sorry that I can’t afford to buy a book on every subject that we discuss, and am forced to do my research in other ways. |
The book Mr. P and I were reading was available free online, was less than 200 pages in length, and is routinely cited as one of most concise and reputable histories of the Witch Crazes. Maybe you don't have internet access?
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| You seem to lack a fundamental knowledge of the way things work in the real world and in my opinion it hurts your arguments. |
Why don't you tell me sometime about the real world. Sounds like information I could use.
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| Divide and conquer huh Mad? |
Divide, yes. But conquer is your M.O. I think there's still half a chance that Mr. P can be persuaded to help make this a discussion forum, rather than an extended ideological wrestling match, which is what you seem to prefer. Whether or not he agrees with me on the issue of religion is beside the point. |
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject:
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Mad
The book Mr. P and I were reading was available free online, was less than 200 pages in length, and is routinely cited as one of most concise and reputable histories of the Witch Crazes. |
And after reading it you still came to a bad conclusion and looked rather silly by the end of the debate.
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Mad
Why don't you tell me sometime about the real world? Sounds like information I could use. |
Your brain is way too clouded by philosophy, you wouldn’t get it.
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Mad
Divide, yes. But conquer is your M.O. |
So sue me.
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Mad
I think there's still half a chance that Mr. P can be persuaded to help make this a discussion forum, rather than an extended ideological wrestling match, which is what you seem to prefer. |
Hey, you’re the one getting all wound up in a tizzy here; I just agreed with Mr. P. that your actions on this board (despite what you want to call yourself) are not and have not been the actions of a moderate.
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Niall001
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject:
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| Not to interrupt this positively fascinating bout of off-topic naval-gazing, but Frank would you mind telling me the actions of a moderate would look like in your opinion? |
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject:
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Niall
Frank would you mind telling me the actions of a moderate would look like in your opinion? |
How about NOT defending religion at every opportunity?
Why not admit, based off of the information available that the Muhammad teddy bear incident is the result of religious intolerance, that it was unjustified, silly and dangerous?
I think a moderate could do that.
Instead we get a plethora of “possible” secular reasons that allow the law to exist, so it can't be the religions fault.
Mad says that he does not feel that it is necessary for him to criticize religion because it is already covered well enough by the atheists.
Apparently he has little or nothing to offer in that category.
Yet he jumps in at every opportunity to defend religion, even when several other theists are already on the case.
I guess Mad does not think much of the other theist’s arguments.
In other words Mad feels the need to defend | | |
