Harry Marks "I actually think this is seriously bad doctrine. It is true that there is nothing we can do to merit the blessings we receive from God. But our helplessness is precisely of the kind that can be overcome. God wants to be part of that - God wants to save us."

I think you have missed the point. Man on his own is hopeless, helpless and incapable of producing salvation on his own! He has broken God's laws an is incapable of making proper restitution that would appease God's anger.

THUS, God made a way to provide salvation for man. A SECOND CHANCE. By sending His Son, Jesus Christ, to pay for our sin debt. See the b--k speaks of 16 steps why God sent His Son to die in our place.

1) For Sin God showed a SACRIFICE was needed - this was done in Genesis. We only are given the account that they were provided ANIMAL SKINS. Well one must logically think that God showed them a means to a proper sacrifice. Cain and Able practiced two different ones, and Able's was correct in God's eyes. A sacrifice constitutes a DEATH.

2) The problem with man paying for his sin by DEATH would mean that he could not spend eternity with God. Tough to resolve something when you are dead.

3) Thus, God made His Son to take the place of man (vicarious substitution) to pay their sin debt.

4) This is not the end of the resolution of forgiveness and restoration. God has met us half way with a means of reconciliation, man must come the other half and humble himself to ACCEPT the GIFT of forgiveness and salvation.

Just as if I had cheated on my wife. NOTHING I could do could make up for my betrayal of our love. But she could willingly choose to forgive me and extend to me a second chance, but I must humbly take it and prove myself worthy of being her husband again. Very similar to the workings of God.

Christians are NEVER completely PERFECT due to sins of omission or commission. But my effort, desire and discipline can help me overcome my desires to sin (attraction to please self).

I hope this clarifies my position so far on what GOD SAYS, not just based on what ONE BELIEVES. Always go by what GOD SAID. Man's ways are very often erroneous.

Harry Marks wrote:Could you explain what is KRST?

i think it was touched on in this thread from yesteryear

http://www.booktalk.org/post96651.html

basically

the Egyptian term for mummy is krst

heres some Massey quoted in that thread

The mummy was the Osirian Corpus Christi, prepared for burial as the laid-out dead, the karast by name. When raised to its feet, it was the risen mummy, or sahu. The place of embalmment was likewise the krs. Thus the process of making the mummy was to karas, the place in which it was laid is the karas, and the product was the krst, whose image is the upright mummy=the risen Christ. Hence, the name of the Christ, Christos in Greek, Chrestus in Latin, for the anointed, was derived…from the Egyptian word krst….

bob wrote:So youkrst, which of the three points so far do you not grasp?

"So we have learned 1) God created man for mutual enjoyment, to know, respect and learn from each other.
2) Man had the perfect environment in the garden of Eden and chose to seek more and different by pleasing himself instead of obeying God.

That brings us to 3) that since man had such a fractured relationship with God, man was destined for ETERNAL separation from God. You see man has nothing to offer God that would appease his wrath towards man's disobedience."

i think i have kept up with the three points bob

it reminds me of James Bond, we have learned

1) Bond is an agent with a license to kill
2) He really should have settled down with Moneypenny
3) Villains shouldn't spend so much time extrapolating their plots as it gives Bond the time he needs to escape.

With that kind of comment makes me think that this is not serious. Do we need to continue or watch a Bond Movie?

i was serious in that i was making a point.

you are taking me step by step through what you have come to understand largely based on a book.

we can all have an understanding based on a book but that doesn't make the book factual.

i learnt quite a bit reading "The Martian" by Andy Weir but that doesn't mean that i expect to meet Astronaut Mark Watney anytime soon.

though in a way we all can relate to aspects of ourselves that have been in predicaments that echo Watney's

so, true but not true.

it's true a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

but not true in the sense that you should invest your retirement fund in bird trading.

for me to be literally minded is death to the better comprehension.

Your last statement "for me to be literally minded is death to the better comprehension."

Is that a literal interpretation?

If you are looking fro some figurative truth - you are barking up the wrong tree.

I think you are looking to do what most men want. Tell me something I can agree with.

Isaiah 58:16 "Your ways are not my ways" saith the Lord.

Almost all the ways that man thinks opposes the ways of God. You need to figure out what you want - truth or pandering of your thinking ways.

I am not doing this for an exercise of futility. Most of your comments just want to oppose what is said. I said that you can have opposing ideas, but hold it until the end. Of course your ideas don't agree with what I state. If you did that you would not be seeking answers.

They are not my concepts, they are Gods.

finally, you said it is a book that anyone can read and get its message. You got NOTHING as to the message of the book. Your statement is totally false.

Often to save a person, they must find that they are lost. You don't feel you are lost. Best Wishes!

You need to figure out what you want - truth or pandering of your thinking ways.

theres that mirror again.

They are not my concepts, they are Gods.

or are they your concepts about what you perceive as God's concepts?

You don't feel you are lost. Best Wishes!

and to you bob

" They are not my concepts, they are Gods."

Why when someone declares God concepts, do people want to declare they are rather those persons concepts.

I understand that many people are wrong and makes us men skeptics.

However, when the concepts are in line with the BOOK than you should accept them as truth.

When someone teaches geometry and the concepts taught match up, you do not claim they are the concepts of the professor. He is just passing on the concepts for others to also accept and appreciate.

When someone teaches geometry and the concepts taught match up, you do not claim they are the concepts of the professor. He is just passing on the concepts for others to also accept and appreciate.

yes but all teachers of geometry agree that "a squared plus b squared equals c squared"

and indeed i can easily verify that for myself should i be curious.

compare that to this statement

bob wrote:So man was basically left helpless, hopeless and without any means of restoration.

but i know many people who are not helpless or hopeless and yet they do not even believe in ANY God, let alone the exact one you are trying to present.

Youkrst "but i know many people who are not helpless or hopeless and yet they do not even believe in ANY God, let alone the exact one you are trying to present."

Perception is one thing, reality is another. In the eyes of God ALL mankind is hopeless, helpless and cannot merit salvation from peril on his own.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death (eternal separation from God), but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ His Son."

You are exactly right that there are many varying statements about God and the Bible. It is very clear on how to acquire salvation, but mankind in time always sways to sin and pollutes its church dogma to be more liberal in its actions. Shoot SOME Methodist and Episcopals are now supporting abortion, where scripture clearly is for LIFE (Jeremiah 1:5).

Mankind has nothing to offer God to make recompense for their sins.