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Big bang inflation vs. speed o' light 
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Post Big bang inflation vs. speed o' light
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Physicists announced Thursday that they now have the smoking gun that shows the universe went through extremely rapid expansion in the moments after the big bang, growing from the size of a marble to a volume larger than all of observable space in less than a trillion-trillionth of a second. The discovery



Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:39 pm
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Post Re: Big bang inflation vs. speed o' light
Thanks for posting that information. Now I can print it out and take it to the next Atheist MeetUp where there is this man that will not stop screaming that the Big Bang never happened. In fact he gave me a book by that title, but I have yet to read it.




Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:13 pm
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Post Re: Big bang inflation vs. speed o' light
fascinating.




Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:27 pm
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Post Re: Big bang inflation vs. speed o' light
Here's a graphic that shows the expansion.

map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_ig/06...ine300.jpg

Photographic evidence is definitive proof! ::100

Edited by: LanDroid at: 3/19/06 7:33 pm



Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:25 am
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Post Re: Big bang inflation vs. speed o' light
Landroid, time was bent.;)

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Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:49 am
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Post Re: Big bang inflation vs. speed o' light & black holes
The fabric of space is not an object to consider under the speed of light limit, which are between objects.

You will once again see this apparent violation as the expansion of the universe exponentially increases due to "dark energy". As the gravitational effects of the universe lessens due to greater distance, the dark energy gains in influence.

The first effects are distant galaxies near the beginning of formation shortly after the big bang "disappear". The reason for this is at that distance, expanding space has pushed these far objects at faster than the speed of light in reference to the observer, hence, they "disappear". As we continue to move forward in time, this boundary accelerates towards the observer, cutting off more and more of the view of the universe. One milestone is when we will not be able to see other galaxies, and our own galaxy begins to expand and red shift. The fabric of space begins to tear apart our galaxy right before our eyes!

The next milestone is the dark force begins to overwhelm the gravity of central stars and the planets rapidly move away into the darkness.

Then the dark force begins to overwhelm the gravity of planets, and then stars. Matter begins to evaporate into space.

The pace continues to accelerate under the exponential curve and matter itself gets ripped to shreds - then folks, it is all over!

Even in our current time, the rapid expansion of space around a developing black hole supposedly violates the speed of light, and the matter within it cannot be seen by us.

So this "law" is supposedly being violated all the time in the here and now! If you think the big bang could not happen because of the speed of light rule, then black holes cannot exist either as they are performing the same violation!

Monty Vonn
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:41 am
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Post Re: Big bang inflation vs. speed o' light & black holes
I'm not claiming the big bang didn't happen because the speed o' light was broken. I'm saying if that barrier was broken 14 billion years ago and is "being violated all the time in the here and now", then let's harness it and set a course for the Delta Quadrant! ::115




Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:17 am
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Post Re: Big bang inflation vs. speed o' light & black holes
I have spent much of my free thinking time on this subject; it is one of the reasons I found this forum, and though I am not a huge intelligence I think I have some good thoughts on it.

I too wondered how the expansion of the universe could have expanded from essentially a zero point to a place billions of light years across in a matter of moments given what we think we know about speed 'o light (S'oL) and physics.

Firstly I supposed that there were two ways to view it (or more) and that one was conventional, the other was imaginative and freed from some or all of the rules we have "invented" to describe reality as we observe it.

In an inviolable S'oL universe the only way I can think that expansion was able to break the speed limit was that in that pre-universe there was no space/time, the S'oL is no more complicated than determining the time of a car trip; distance/time=speed. Or, speedXtime=distance, etc. The universe could not have expanded to it's current size at the S'oL in the number of years we think it has been traveling, even if we assume that the universe actually does have an outer edge that "traveled away from the center where we presume the "explosion" of the BB happened. So, there is space/time inside the universe where we are, but none outside of it so that the issue of the calcs above is moot outside the universe. You can even say that for all intents there IS no outside because physics as we experience it would not exist there if there is an outside.

But, inside our universe the laws of physics which impose this S'oL limit were not effective till the universe cooled to the point where plasma formed anyway so expansion was not limited. That however in a BIG BANG (BB) theory where all creation and expansion was simultaneous should have resulted in a hollow shell of a universe where all observable matter was on the "skin" of the bubble. That would certainly change the way we think of the current form of the universe, it's age and why we think we see it the way we do.

What got me thinking of this was that I have read that no matter which direction you point a telescope you see roughly the same thing, the early universe, light that has traveled for billions of years. And, that would mean that we are in the center, or near center of a universe that is not a shell but a blob filled throughout. Up, down, NESW, polar or equatorial, no matter which way we look we see light that is some 13-15 billion years old. If we were on the surface of a "shell" universe ala the balloon theory the only way this could happen is if we were seeing light that has traveled all the way around the surface on it's course back to where it started and we are seeing it at some point on that journey, even as we send out radiation and it travels that same surface to one day come back on it's journey.

To my mind the universe has to have a diameter that is twice the measured size, if the OLDEST light came from a point in the proximity of the BB then it would have traveled just as far from the center on all "sides." So we say the universe is 14 billion years old/across, but that is the radius not the diameter. If light is 14 billion years old that would make the universe 28 billion light years across in total (at least) but in the initial expansion not limited to S'oL it could have been infinitely larger than that before light started to form.

Another consideration for me was that according to Einstein mass and energy are just different expressions of the same thing, they are equal, or maybe a better way to say it is that they are unified. So the seed, the nucleus of the universe, the thing that was to be the source of the BB was cold (metaphorically speaking, cold actually would have no meaning in that context), condensed energy of infinite density. All matter is a form of energy, just as ice is a form of water. The value of that energy content in matter is described as E=MC ^2. A very large number, but that number appears to be constant in our universe, it may not always have been so. If there is no S'oL limit in the pre-universe then the value of C is infinite, thus infinite energy in the kernel of BB mass.

We are told that as we approach the S'oL the energy required to go faster keeps growing until at the S'oL it is infinite, that does not mean 186,282.397 miles per second is the absolute limit, just that we reach infinite energy input to grow speed at that point. So, since there is no amount beyond infinite there can be no speed beyond the number given.

Relativity also is interpreted so that as we approach the S'oL time slows for us, relative to time on the starting point, Earth in our case. At the point where we reach infinite input of energy to go faster if that could be done, the S'oL, time for the traveler relative to Earth would stop. Cease to exist. This is some hard assed concept to wrap your mind around. It would mean that there was no coming back because time would have ended and you would be beyond the relative physics of the Earth.

And yet there is precedent for this being done, all light is doing it at all times. That means from our point of view that light is outside of time, it has infinite energy because at some point the energy input to boost it to the S'oL had to have happened. We should not be able to SEE light, to observe something that is traveling at that high speed outside of time should be impossible for those captured in time. From the point of view of light our universe must have ceased to be because we are in time while it has reached the point where time no longer exists. This is a conundrum that means the laws of physics we apply today are incomplete.

It could be explained by saying that light is traveling at the maximum input of energy that it was imbued with, propelled by the BB, that is next to infinite but not totally infinite. That the real S'oL is just a bit higher than the number given above, that would allow for time to move from the point of view of light that we could then experience and observe.

It would also explain how stars like ours can issue light. In order to propel light from the sun to the Earth and beyond at the S'oL, the sun would have to be providing the mass/energy of light we so enjoy at the beach (I think the question of whether light has mass is still unsettled in theoretical physics) with infinite energy according to relativity. If light from our sun is traveling at the S'oL then it has to have infinite energy and that had to be FROM somewhere. We understand that the sun has a LOT of energy, but not infinite energy.

Is relativity wrong? If so, is our ability to think out the true nature of the universe intrinsically limited so that we cannot figure out the real reality of the universe?

One thing for sure is that all thought about size, speed, time, and the origin of the universe is tied inextricably. UNLESS... I have thought that it is possible that we only perceive the universe as a sequential flow of "time," a series of events that flow in one direction because without this self imposed sequence we call time all events, all imagination, all consciousness and experience, it would all happen simultaneously, no beginning, no middle, no end. "Forever" and never at the same time. See? Even our language is formed around this ability to break reality into packaged units that can be experienced in a flow, there was no other way to my mind to put that last concept.

What if there is no such thing as time? Suppose it is something we have made up in order to be able to experience? If you took all colors and mixed them you would lose their unique beauty, their individuality as it were. So you separate them in order to see the blues, or the yellows. Suppose that is what we have done with the creation of time? If so it would tend to support the theory that we ARE god (for lack of a better word), all of one thing. That might help to explain why we subtly perceive a higher power/ability, being. Because we ARE that power/being. It would explain why we instinctively believe there is a eternity, eternal "soul."

Well, these are just some of the ideas I have toyed with, since there is no real answer in this realm while we are restricted to space/time it helps me get to sleep at night.

Let me know if you think this is all pedestrian, I assure you it is not so in my head, but if it seems that way to you then I will have to work on my descriptive powers. I suppose that is why we come to a forum about word craft yes?




Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:25 pm
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Post Re: Big bang inflation vs. speed o' light & black holes
Nothings wrong with the speed of light, the universe itself is expanding. This doesn't just mean things are getting further away from each other, but the very fabric of space is actually expanding. Think of it like a rubber band, if you take a rubber band, cut it and hold it in a straight line, put some paper clips in various places on it and then stretch it. The paperclips aren't changing relative to the rubber band, but are now further away. The rubber band is space. No consider this, an object leaves one of the paperclips towards another during the expansion, the overall distance the object traveled will be shorter than the final distance between the paperclips. For some quick and easy math let's suppose the starting distance between the two paperclips is 10 inches, the expansion rate is 1 inch a second. The object is traveling at 2 inches a sec. After the first sec the object has traveled 2 inches, the objects are now 11 inches apart but the object is 8.5 inches away from the other paperclip. So in just under 7 sec the object reaches the paperclip, the distance from the two paperclips is just under 17 inches and the speed of the object is still 2 inches a sec. The object only traveled ~14 inches but the distance is ~17 inches.




Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:24 am
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Post Re: Big bang inflation vs. speed o' light & black holes
Interesting analogy, but, if it is true then space/time is not inextricably linked as we were taught. It would also play hell with the age of the universe theories I have read since it would mean that we could not know how far/long light has traveled since the big bang, light itself would be subject to the same distortion from an unknowable and variable past rate of expansion. All theory I have seen relies on light moving for all time since the BB at precisely the 186,000+ MPS rate we were taught in school, with your excellent post we see that we would have to allow for a certain shift that we cannot know.

Hubble wasn't it? The one that made fame by giving us the red shift and blue shift of starlight? That tells us the rate of expansion NOW, but we do not know that the shift was always at the same rate, and current favored hypothesis is that the universe expanded at way beyond the Speed 'o Light during the Big Bang and slowed after that. This gave rise to the "dark matter" theories which has dragged the speed down, but that we are still expanding, and will expand till the universe is so large and dark and cold that it just is no longer a system.

What all that tells us is that the rate of expansion has been anything but uniform over the life of the universe. If it had been uniform from the BB till the end of time as it were, then we could accurately compensate for the expansion in relativity, and once again time would be inextricably tied to space.

If you are an astronaut in that paperclip ship your time would be slowing relative to Earth (Earth would speed up relative to you), and more so because space is expanding simultaneously, the calculation for speed, distance, and time are as simple as it gets, it is taught in grade school, but if any of these is less than objective, if it becomes a variable then any output is going to be a subjective variable as well.

Time, if it exists, must do so coincidentally with a given place, but can't be said to be constant. The Uncertainty Principal alone would rule out a truly accurate measurement of time, space, distance.

Which reminds me of Zeno's paradox, the "half way to a given point" paradox if you remember. That all things that move must first travel half the distance to a destination, and again half the distance and so on so that logically a thing could never reach that destination because it would always have half the remaining distance to go.

Yet we do reach destinations so that paradox is overcome every day of our lives. I think Zeno's paradox can be viewed with time as well, we would have half the remaining time to go to the end of travel, and I am sure I am not the first to think of this, but have never seen any papers about it. If you concentrate on it long enough it could well be proof that time is nothing but a mental creation of humans to make sense out of what would otherwise be chaos.

If you have any great illustrations like the last one that can help explain about Zeno I would be grateful to read it. I used to think about it a lot when I was about 6 after I first heard of it, till adult pressures made it a lower priority, but I am willing to discuss it if you are.




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Post Re: Big bang inflation vs. speed o' light & black holes
All of physics takes this into account, it's not new. Hubble first postulated it in the 20's, its is a direct observable result of the big bang. Consider this we say that the universe is 10 billions years old, and we also say we can see stars 30 billion light years away. This is only possible in an expanding universe. And yes the rate of change has been different over time, previously it was thought that it has been slowly decelerating since shortly after the big bang, but recent findings have shown that it is in fact accelerating.

And calculus solved zenos paradox a long time ago. It was a paradox because Greek math had no concept of 0 and didn't know how to handle infinity. It the limit in calculus that allows you to get finite results from infinite points.




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Moby Dick: or, the Whale by Herman MelvilleA Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer EganLost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

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