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Re: Belief in the Supernatural
Jesus loves me, this I know, because the Bible tells me so. Now why would I or any person believe this if Jesus Christ is just a fictional character in a story in a book? How can a story be proof of Jesus' reality or God? Well, for me it happens when the Story's wisdom statements match what the Spirit has put into my mind before I read the words about it. It happens when I discover my life is the working out of a spiritual archetype without my conscious awareness of this happening at the time, often only learning about it years later, something that goes far to validate spiritual consciousness preceding intellectual arrival of analysis of the same phenomenological events. You see, the Spirit motivates us in the same way "inspiration" motivates creative thought, it cannot be intellectually controlled as it is not a linear a to b gets you to c process. And this upsets the logical mind no end and creates your atheist reactionaries who haven't the spiritual experience crying foul, you're cheating when you say God is real and tells you things, or worse, you're out of your mind. Meanwhile, whole civilizations turn on the religious visions of men atheists think were out of their minds..
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Re: Belief in the Supernatural
Quote:
More and more strawmen..
My religious conversion of undergoing three days of continuous synchronicity experiences cannot be dismissed as "entirely subjective and internal, most likely a misunderstanding of bias and probability". This is typical shallow atheist analysis and untrue as any reading of the work of Carl Jung would inform you. Or do you dismiss Jung's work in line with your atheist viewpoint? I don't and many millions of people do not as well.
If you think I'm the one guilty of misunderstanding, then explain what you mean by continuous synchronicity not being able to be explained by a misunderstanding of bias and probability. If there is "something" that changed your mind, illuminate that something for me. If there is anything whatsoever objective(rather than "subjective and internal"), then it can be discussed as such. Forgive me for erecting another strawman, but I'd bet my biscuits that the factor which had the greatest impact upon you was emotional, in some form. That is usually where we allow errors in our thinking, or accept the superfluous.
You can start another thread if you wish. I'm open game to discuss whatever.
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Re: Belief in the Supernatural
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And this upsets the logical mind no end and creates your atheist reactionaries who haven't the spiritual experience crying foul, you're cheating when you say God is real and tells you things, or worse, you're out of your mind
The brain is an amazing beautiful thing, and is responsible for all the things you've described without needing any supernatural explanation. I don't cry foul about such things, I understand most people cannot accept that the human mind is capable of such things, that the work that goes on unconsciously can be so profound and productive. I see such things as natural, you see them as spiritual. If such things are able to be explained naturally, then there's nothing to account for your motive to believe in a god other than your own failure of understanding. Unable to account, you turn to the supernatural, just like every person who has turned to the supernatural when they don't understand something. If that is a straw man, it is at least accurate and truthful.
I've seen some common themes emerge concerning theistic belief. One common theme is that a person goes through life until they chance across an event or phenomenon that they have no way to explain. So they turn to the supernatural. In each of these cases, in fact every one, I've seen a natural explanation, or at least the possibility of a natural explanation. This has happened right in front of my eyes, to a person who had just experienced the same exact thing as me. They couldn't explain it, so the "next available solution" pops into their heads, the supernatural. This is so common that I find myself becoming disdainful when I see it happen. My point isn't that supernatural events are impossible. My point is that a lack of personal understanding does not justify accepting a supernatural explanation. It is a failure of process, not a failure of conclusion.
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Re: Belief in the Supernatural
Interbane, you need to do the following experiment to begin to dislodge your prejudices about spiritual phenomena. Ask your friends or relatives if they've have had synchronicity experiences. Chances are high someone you know very well or a relative will have had such experiences. Ask them what those experiences entailed and look closely at the "coincidences". A common attack on the validity of synchronicity experiences is that they are just a person's brain suddenly becoming conscious of similar things appearing in a cluster because they are paying attention, e.g. you buy a new red Ford and suddenly you're seeing red Fords all over the place that you never noticed before. I don't buy this feeble explanation at all because in all my memorable synchronicity experiences what makes them uniquely stand out is that they involve things that one doesn't see in clusters, separate yet all connected in some way to your situation. Maybe you've got some other explanation for synchronicity events. I just know that synchronicity events are going on all the time in people's lives, the "as above, so below" astro-theology being but one prominent form of them but our "normal" consciousness blocks out awareness of them as it does many other sensational input our brain is receiving all the time in order that we aren't overwhelmed by such. Still, to think this world moves only by physical effect is to rob one's mentality of God-given capacity to deal with spiritual forces invisible to our present science's ability to physically register it. But like how the brain processes the emotion of love wasn't understood until testosterone studies showed the correlation, so too science is getting closer to understanding how the brain processes spiritual input. What makes a person fall in love? What makes your testosterone levels jump for a particular person. Can you quantify your reactions so that you can duplicate it on command, e.g. pump your testosterone levels up when a pretty woman sits down next to you or is it not like that, like it's a Special relationship even though chemistry plays its part in it. Same thing with a spiritual relationship. And that's the future, science finding more and more information on how the brain processes spiritual input. Of course this spells the End Times of Atheism...
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Re: Belief in the Supernatural
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Maybe you've got some other explanation for synchronicity events.
It's called coincidence. The onus is on you to show such things are not coincidence. Did you catch my story above about a falling ex-girlfriend? An impossibly unlikely series of events which holds incredible meaning to someone is a very probable occurence without needed any supernatural explanation. Like I said, your beliefs are born from your misunderstanding of how the world works, including your own brain. Some good authors on neuroscience for you to read are Daniel Dennet and Sam Harris. But there's baggage with Harris due to his rhetoric. Michael Shermer also deals with the psychology of belief.
Quote:
And that's the future, science finding more and more information on how the brain processes spiritual input.
There are studies out there, with a great deal of philosophical discussion surrounding the results. In every study I've seen, the results fit within the rubric of a naturalistic universe. Do you have studies which show differently?
Quote:
Of course this spells the End Times of Atheism...
That would require the manifestation of new evidence. Believing coincidences are magical does not qualify.
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Re: Belief in the Supernatural
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
Maybe you've got some other explanation for synchronicity events.
It's called coincidence. The onus is on you to show such things are not coincidence. Did you catch my story above about a falling ex-girlfriend? An impossibly unlikely series of events which holds incredible meaning to someone is a very probable occurence without needed any supernatural explanation. Like I said, your beliefs are born from your misunderstanding of how the world works, including your own brain. Some good authors on neuroscience for you to read are Daniel Dennet and Sam Harris. But there's baggage with Harris due to his rhetoric. Michael Shermer also deals with the psychology of belief.
Quote:
And that's the future, science finding more and more information on how the brain processes spiritual input.
There are studies out there, with a great deal of philosophical discussion surrounding the results. In every study I've seen, the results fit within the rubric of a naturalistic universe. Do you have studies which show differently?
Quote:
Of course this spells the End Times of Atheism...
That would require the manifestation of new evidence. Believing coincidences are magical does not qualify.
Did you read my post? I suggested you talk to your friends about their synchronicity experiences. This is to counter propaganda of atheists trying to "explain" how statistical improbabilities that mark the sychronicity experience are just the brain focusing on similarities that occur all the time only we're not looking for them. And I gave the car example. I'm sorry but these explanations do not explain synchronicity experiences at all except for those too lazy to actually do some personal research like I suggested to get accurate feedback from people who've actually have synchronicity experiences. I could give several examples in my own life where "coincidences" piled up making impossible to state there was no correlation between them unless one is totally brain dead. Here's one:
I was arguing with Wiccans about their belief system being cobbled together out of bits and pieces of old English witchcraft lore around an anti-Christian base and they of course were telling me I was full of it, didn't know what I was talking about, Wicca was an ancient religion far older than Christianity, had it's own doctrines, etc, etc,. Well, during this debate time I had a dental clinic appointment and in the clinic's waiting room office there was nothing to read but one magazine sitting on the table. It was an old Atlantic magazine that just happened to have an article about how Wicca was created by this Englishman with a fondness for nudism and old English terminology who got his witchcraft information from a few women practicing the old arts which he then recorded and palmed off as Wicca. I posted this the next day and of course was yelled at in print. The main Wiccan woman I was debating later converted to Christianity I found out as she posted on Christian boards and told me that it was true for her, that she came to Wicca in negative reaction to Christianity. Now, is it the usual thing to see one old magazine conveniently placed for using as reference in an ongoing internet debate? Is this coincidence so easily explained? I think not because these out of the ordinary things happen to me with enough frequency that I could never accept a flimsy rationalization that says, "oh, they're just coincidences, nothing special, happen all the time.."
Tell that to all the Jungian therapists who know better..Synchronicity events were the way God guided me spiritually for many years.
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Re: Belief in the Supernatural
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Is this coincidence so easily explained? I think not because these out of the ordinary things happen to me with enough frequency that I could never accept a flimsy rationalization that says, "oh, they're just coincidences, nothing special, happen all the time.."
Such impossibly rare coincidences must mathematically occur all the time. As I've said, putting a bandaid over your inability to understand that such rare coincidences are in fact routine is an all too human mistake. We can't deal with such concepts because our brain isn't equipped. It's the same thing as attempting to fully understand the concept of infinity, or the number of grains of sand on all the beaches in the world. It almost feels as if your thoughts are 'repelled'. The point here is that asking if such coincidences are easily explained misses the point that we may not be able to explain them. That doesn't mean accepting supernaturalism as an answer. It means coming to terms with your own inability to grasp the complexity of the universe. But some people won't settle for that. They must have an answer.
I could sit here in my den and list off a million rare occurences that could possibly happen. Mixtures of rare events from birds flying into my window as I'm researching that exact species on the internet to the infestation of a swarm of ants just as my Aunt I haven't talked to in 20 years calls. Spilling water onto my computer, causing me to move and avoid a bullet shot through my wall from a crazy neighbor. Having my son somehow get my phone working just in time to recieve a text that spinach is recalled worldwide, mere seconds before my wife took a bite. Sneezing on the computer screen and my phlegm landing in a perfect resemblance of my first girlfriend's face, just as she pokes me on facebook for the first time in a decade.
Your imagination is the limit, and the number of potential "meaningful" occurrences at any given moment in time is massive, much much more than you would think. It's just that we don't notice the millions of possible "meaningful" occurrences that don't happen, because even though they were potential, they did not happen. That oversight causes the failure of the understanding of probability of such events. That for all the "hits" you notice, the number of "misses" is enormous beyond compare.
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Re: Belief in the Supernatural
Brain chemistry is powerful stuff, and most all “spiritual” experiences can be attributed to alterations thereof. Natural alterations of brain chemistry (that is, instances in individuals not under the influence of drugs or other artificial stimuli) occur all the time as a result of physical and emotional responses to naturally occurring events. Some of these can become chronic, or are dictated by genetics, in which cases they are referred to as “mental diseases” such as schizophrenia. In fact, it has been speculated that many of the religious experiences of the major figures in the Bible and other religious texts could be attributed to mental disease or temporary alterations in brain chemistry in response to certain powerful physical or emotional stimuli. This also explains the (almost always temporary) “healing” of parishioners by charlatan (or sincere) preachers or self-proclaimed “prophets.”
As for coincidence, serendipity, luck and the like, all one has to do is look at the statistical odds of any event or set of events to understand that such things are natural happenstances having nothing to do with the supernatural or spiritual. Probability Theory, though counterintuitive to many persons outside the theoretical mathematics community, can explain just about any instance of seemingly magical coincidence. The famous example of this being the so-called birthday paradox, which states that if you randomly gather a group of only 23 persons, there is at least a 50-50 chance that two of them will have the exact same birthday. When asked to estimate how large a group would be necessary for this “coincidence” to occur, most people put the number near or above 400. This example reveals the tendency of the human mind to vastly overestimate the actual statistical probabilities involved in “coincidental” occurrences of all kinds.
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Re: Belief in the Supernatural
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
Is this coincidence so easily explained? I think not because these out of the ordinary things happen to me with enough frequency that I could never accept a flimsy rationalization that says, "oh, they're just coincidences, nothing special, happen all the time.."
Such impossibly rare coincidences must mathematically occur all the time. As I've said, putting a bandaid over your inability to understand that such rare coincidences are in fact routine is an all too human mistake. We can't deal with such concepts because our brain isn't equipped. It's the same thing as attempting to fully understand the concept of infinity, or the number of grains of sand on all the beaches in the world. It almost feels as if your thoughts are 'repelled'. The point here is that asking if such coincidences are easily explained misses the point that we may not be able to explain them. That doesn't mean accepting supernaturalism as an answer. It means coming to terms with your own inability to grasp the complexity of the universe. But some people won't settle for that. They must have an answer.
I could sit here in my den and list off a million rare occurences that could possibly happen. Mixtures of rare events from birds flying into my window as I'm researching that exact species on the internet to the infestation of a swarm of ants just as my Aunt I haven't talked to in 20 years calls. Spilling water onto my computer, causing me to move and avoid a bullet shot through my wall from a crazy neighbor. Having my son somehow get my phone working just in time to recieve a text that spinach is recalled worldwide, mere seconds before my wife took a bite. Sneezing on the computer screen and my phlegm landing in a perfect resemblance of my first girlfriend's face, just as she pokes me on facebook for the first time in a decade.
Your imagination is the limit, and the number of potential "meaningful" occurrences at any given moment in time is massive, much much more than you would think. It's just that we don't notice the millions of possible "meaningful" occurrences that don't happen, because even though they were potential, they did not happen. That oversight causes the failure of the understanding of probability of such events. That for all the "hits" you notice, the number of "misses" is enormous beyond compare.
How many times do I have to post it--giving statistical possibiliity for events that are astronomically high against happening is meaningless defense of atheist argument against spiritual phenomena. You forget the whole idea in synchronicity experience is it's Meaningfullness to you. And to others in the case of spiritual recognition. Here's what you can ponder over in this forum where knowledge of the Egyptian connection to Christ and Christianity is being discussed. Now, how many Christians do you know who have considered an Egyptian connection to the Gospels? Not very many I would venture to guess. Now, when did Acharya begin to take the Egyptian connection seriously for her research? How many years ago? 10? 15? Well, the Spirit of God put me onto the Egyptian connection first time way back in 1964 when I and my wife to be went to a Christian psychic who informed me that Egypt would become very important in my life. And it did. Now, when I went through my religious conversion experience at Easter of 1979, again unknown to me, God had slipped in the Egyptian connection in my revelations that came during this time. In 2007 or 8 I started receiving more spiritual insights about Egypt coming in, and then 5 or 6 months ago I found the Christ in Egypt, Acharya's work online. So while modern intellectual effort connecting Christianity with Egypt was running about two decades behind mine done without a lick of research into Egyptian religion, I've never read anything about it outside of the one book so far. How do you atheists explain the synchronicity events that have linked this Christian prophesy bearer to the Egyptian connection to my religious beliefs? Are you going to try to foist the "statistical probabilities deny anything special going on--it's happens everyday", oh sure it does. Meanwhile a Christian prophesy bearer has been put onto the historical truth of Christian beginnings before scholars rechecked their source material and found the same thing...as johnny-come-latelies because they weren't privy to spiritual consciousness.
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Re: Belief in the Supernatural
biomystic - you don't seem to understand the scientific method. If there is evidence for something, then statistical analysis should reveal it. If there is no statistical evidence the 'signal' is either far weaker than postulated or is imaginary. Synchronicity, like astrology, probably falls into both categories.
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