Belief in God

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:56 am Post subject: Belief in God

I have always pondered why people believe the things they do. I focus especially on belief in God, due to the readily apparent weight such belief has on all our lives – believer or not.

Believers seem to just ‘feel it’ and attribute it to faith and an intrinsic knowledge that God exists, plain and simple. Scientists, such as Asimov, Shermer, Gould, and many others, attempt to quantify belief in more testable ways.

Dr. Michael Shermer has written much on this topic and, through study after study, verifies that belief in God is indeed strong. He attributes belief in God, and belief in general, to the structure of the human brain and our ability to seek out patterns in nature. God is one such pattern. ‘The Belief Engine’. This ‘engine’ produces valid results mostly (Type 1 & 2 Hits) but occasionally produces misfires (Type 1 & 2 Errors). (Read the book – “How We Believe” for full explanations on this and many other interesting facets of, well, How We Believe.)

I ‘believe’ that there are many who avow a belief in God for safety reasons. I had a discussion with a friend of mine a while back that made me ponder this matter more than usual. I feel that many believe in God because it ‘can’t hurt’. My friend admitted, in a not so admitting way, that he is in this camp. Mr. Shermer addresses this in his book, but seemingly dismisses it as unfeasible because if one were to pretend to live a life according to a religious system, the hard work it would take to convince a theoretical God of one’s sincerity would drain the faker’s life of happiness, since living a lie is always a detriment to true happiness.

But what I feel is that people do not care about the specifics, just the statement “I believe”. IMHO, I feel that most feel this is enough to at least get their foot in the door to eternal salvation. I base much of this on the way most religious adherents I know live their lives. Not very godly! I feel that much of the belief in god is ingrained in people by their upbringing, be it through family, friends, teachers or whatever. This indoctrination plants the belief in God in the mind so deep that it always lingers. It clouds an otherwise rational mind with doubt and thus leads to self deception on a ‘just in case’ basis.

So is belief in God as a means of eternal-self preservation a valid point? IF there is a God and IF this tactic will work or not in the case that a God exists is not the point.

I would love to hear everyone’s thoughts.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

the hive queen · Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

I have had similar conversations with people, and I have had similar concerns with this type of faith. I have heard many people say they would rather be safe than sorry, so they believe in God. They questioned my logic in covering all my bases --just in case.

Supposing there was a God... I think he would hate being followed out of obligation or fear. He would want to be loved with an open heart, or that's how I picture it. He supposedly loves us and gives us free will... Wouldn't he want us to make an intelligent decision about faith -- not one based on fear?

My personal belief: I have never witnessed an event that would lead me to the belief in anything other than the forces of nature. I believe that the really important issue is how one leads their life. Whether a person CLAIMS to be religious, IS religious, or is some degree atheist, they have the ability to do harm/commit crime. If there was a God, I believe he would be focused on these bigger lifestyle issues. Don't you think it comes down to that basic issue: were you a good person or a bad person.

note: I believe there ARE intelligent reasons for believing in God. However, I don't think the "covering all your bases" is one of them.

Y2Babel · Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Belief in God

Quote:
Don't you think it comes down to that basic issue: were you a good person or a bad person.

I agree. While still in my early journey of questioning, I wonder if this whole God thing wasn't contrived by us (in good faith, of course) back in biblical times and groomed and shaped to encourage ourselves to act in a good way while instilling the fear that if we act in a bad way, we will suffer terrible consequences (hell, etc).

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Belief in God

Quote:
I wonder if this whole God thing wasn't contrived by us (in good faith, of course) back in biblical times and groomed and shaped to encourage ourselves to act in a good way while instilling the fear that if we act in a bad way, we will suffer terrible consequences (hell, etc).

Well of course it was! To me, and I say this with no offense to you, it is one of those "DUH!" instances in life that I constantly bang my head against.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Belief in God

Quote:
Supposing there was a God... I think he would hate being followed out of obligation or fear. He would want to be loved with an open heart, or that's how I picture it. He supposedly loves us and gives us free will... Wouldn't he want us to make an intelligent decision about faith -- not one based on fear?

I agree. Which is why I see the creation of god(s) and religion as implicitly human. Those who would control needed more that physical mechanisms. Eternal damnation is pretty scary!

But why does God always have to be good? Why could it not be possible that if there is a god, he is not a sadistic bastard - Like a bully who tortures animals for fun. Look around at this world. Would a just and loving God really punish billions of people just because Adam and Eve ate an apple? Would he punish unborn babies in Purgatory just because of original sin? Disease, murder, pollution and a myriad of other wonderous things in our world tell me that...

Why do we always like to think of god as beneficent? Because we created it! Narcissistic, are we not?

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

RickU · Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Belief in God

An excellent brief essay on why this belief can actually be harmful is www.hankfox.com/Deadline%20Pressure.htm

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Belief in God

Thanks for the article. It speaks volumes.

The part about the slaves was noteworthy in regard to the "How We Believe" book. Shermer touches on this. Faith is a big part of oppressed people. The hope for a better time to come. Unfortunately for many, that better time HAS to be in another world, for this one will just not give them a chance. Wishful thinking.

A slight twist to the danger of just missing out on life due to blind faith is that eventual salvation can be an excuse for atrocity or just immoral living..."God will forgive me". Cop out, yet again.

It is strange to those of faith that Atheists or non-believers can have morals, but it is quite the opposite in my view: I find more morality in atheists than in theists. Since 95% of the population believes in a god, chances are that most of the evil we have witnessed has been perpertrated by those of faith.

Let's try it the other way and see what happens...it cannot hurt!

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Dissident Heart · Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

As I see it, God-talk is more about our attitude towards reality- as a whole and in all of its parts and pieces.

How we describe God or discuss the issue exposes our trust in what is uncertain and incomplete in our views of reality.

When we make claims to what God is or isnt, we are uttering our fears and aspirations for what is ultimately important and fundamentally non-negotiable.

Our talking about God is a talk about allegiences, alliances and where we choose to stand in the fight for survival and the healing required to survive with some degree of joy.

Talking about God is talking about Love...where it comes from, how it gets here, what we need to do to hold on to it, and where we think it needs to go.

Most importantly, as I see it...talking about God should empower and encourage us to love more fully and with less fear....adding to the dignity of ourselves and the world around us.

Cheers.

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

But, speaking for myself here while assuming I speak for many more who do not believe in god, I can do all this without a god, thus reducing conflict of specific ideologies - ie my god is better than your god.

Be Well,

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Dissident Heart · Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

Mr. P,

If you can do it, then all the more power to you. But, by "it" I'm not sure what you mean, or why you mean "it".

This is the nub of the conversation: What do you mean by "it"?

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Belief in God

I never said I can do 'it'. I say I can do all this:

Quote:
As I see it, God-talk is more about our attitude towards reality- as a whole and in all of its parts and pieces.

How we describe God or discuss the issue exposes our trust in what is uncertain and incomplete in our views of reality.

When we make claims to what God is or isnt, we are uttering our fears and aspirations for what is ultimately important and fundamentally non-negotiable.

Our talking about God is a talk about allegiences, alliances and where we choose to stand in the fight for survival and the healing required to survive with some degree of joy.

Talking about God is talking about Love...where it comes from, how it gets here, what we need to do to hold on to it, and where we think it needs to go.

Most importantly, as I see it...talking about God should empower and encourage us to love more fully and with less fear....adding to the dignity of ourselves and the world around us.

without a belief in a god. I was refering to your comment. Just replace god with the word "REASON" and it all applies to how I try to live my life.

Why is it that so many feel that they cannot live a good, productive and fulfilling life without the belief that there is some superior being to us? I just do not understand how subjugating our importance to a fictional deity makes us better.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

Quote:
As I see it, if you want to see God, watch how well I love...that's the very best I can do.

And all I say is that I can love just as well as those who attibute such love to god. Do you deny that it can be so?

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

Quote:
Watch how well I love... true love comes from my heart (well, brain). From ME. Where is God in that? Can I not love?

I think your two posts have summed up what I have been trying to say nicely!

Thanks!

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Dissident Heart · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

Quote:
Watch how well I love... true love comes from my heart (well, brain). From ME. Where is God in that? Can I not love?

And, what pray tell, is YOU?

Your brain, your body systems, ideas, attitudes, habits, tastes, fears, expectations, hopes, fantasies, wishes...as well as the sperm and ovum that brought your here, and the parents which delivered them...and all the thousands of years of parents behind them....with all their accompanying body systems and intellectual mechanisms...and the biospheric ecosystems that fed and fueled them...and the star that heated them...and the galactic nest that birthed this star...and the wondrous cascades of star stuff and dark matter of which this particular galaxy is but one speck of dust....this is YOU too...isn't it?

And what do we really know about that?

So, to say, "Love comes from ME" is as much a matter of poetic fancy as "God is love"...but neither are as important as actual loving- which, when applied correctly, speaks for itself.

As for, "Can I not love?"...chances are its difficult, if not downright impossible in many cases...love is hard work, demands everything, and is not satisfied with pretty talk or clever arguments...

...actually, in this world, real lovers are hard to find...and those that really love are usually rabblerousing trouble makers, shaking things up, demanding that justice be here and now- not simply talked about or promised...

...most likely, the true lovers in life have upset more than a few people- especially those for whom hate and injustice are integral to their prominence, prestige and power...and considering the amount of hate it takes to conquer, dominate, and control whole populations and pollute entire planets- the lovers of the world are probably in very risky waters...

...if they love hard enough, as an example made by the haters, they just might find themselves nailed to a cross...

the hive queen · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

I believe my entire being resides in my body. My thoughts, feelings, and beliefs are in my head.

Even the ovum and sperm that created me no longer is me. Everything that came before me is physically seperate from me.

Dissident Heart, do you really disagree with that?

As far as how well we can love... I don't think anyone can really judge that. No one else can truly see inside someone else's head. What people do with their love is what I think is important. People act out in aweful ways in the name of love. I imagine everyone is in agreement with that.

One last note: I love nature more than most people. Are you implying, Dissident Heart, that love only exists between people? What about that artistic side of you...


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