Belief in God

RickU · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

ermm..my mistake. It looked like you were talking about the parting of the red sea

Jeremy1952 · Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Belief in God

deadcity12

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so thermodynamics, love, and god do not exist physically....however, real physical relationships DO exist that are understood using these terms....

Sorry, thermodynamics and love are real. God and Santa Clause are imaginary. The difference is meaningful.

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why do you readily give faith to "science" but scoff at faith in "god"?

I have no faith in science, I have confidence in its results and conclusions. Computers work. Prayer doesn't. And there is nothing "readily" about it; I have spent most of my life studying both the methods and results of science to better understand the world. A very important distinction that is frequently lost on luddites is this: "Science" does not know everything. Conversely, though, everything we know with a high degree of certainty we know from science.

If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything. Daniel Dennett, 1984

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Belief in God

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why do you readily give faith to "science" but scoff at faith in "god"?

Jeremy1952 sums this up best. When people refer to my, or others, 'faith' in science, I get a little insulted and annoyed. I ask politely that you not refer to our trust and confidence in science as 'faith'. Faith implies blind abandon in acceptance of something with little supportive facts. Not science.

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and i believe it to be aesthetically pleasing as well.

I have no problem with artistic expression. God and all the myths of humans are great in this regard...but it has no place in making policy that everyone must live with. Nor does creationism nonsense belong in schools. There are too many different faiths proclaiming the same state of existence in too many different ways for there to be any universal use for religion in our lives by decree.

Again, most of the problem I have with religion is it's followers. Just look what they have done! The problem I have with God, when it is forced on me, is that there is no real evidence of it's reality. Just 'feeling' something does not make it exist.

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maybe these are internal psychological states, desires, and uncertainties---common to all of us. some order the chaos w/ science or reason---others with religion or god.

This is like trying to learn how to build a robot by reading Asimov as opposed to going to a good engineering school. As for religion compared to science...one is a myth, one is reality. Only one is testable and convincing.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

deadcity12 · Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

1st...someone please tell me how to quote...it might make this easier...

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

First, start off by hitting 'reply' on the message you want to reply to, not the main 'reply' button at the top and bottom of the forum. Select from the messages (on the bottom of the screen, under your reply box) the text you wish to quote. On the side of the box you type your reply in, there is a quote button.

Hit the quote button and a little dialog box will open at the top of the computer screen. Paste the desired text into the dialog box and hit enter.

*The box will only accept one line if the poster used return carriages between lines, or so I have discerned. But once you have those 2 quote tags, you can paste as much as you want within them without having to use multiple quote tags.

I usually just hit the quote button, put a '.' in there and just cut and paste what I want.

You will need multiple quote tags if you want to itemize your response to different quotes.

If you want to quote form multiple messages, keep a second window open so you can navigate through all posts.

Hope this is not too confusing.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Jeremy1952 · Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

The other way to do it is just to type [quote] at the beginning and [/quote] at the end; bold, underline, and italic work the same way, using letter b, u, or i instead of the word "quote" .

I generally compose the whole thing in my wordprocessor, complete with ezCodes, and paste it in to the box. That way I get my fancy spellchecker and have a copy if ezBoard decides to loose it, which happens on occasion.

If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything. Daniel Dennett, 1984

deadcity12 · Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

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Hit the quote button and a little dialog box will open at the top of the computer screen. Paste the desired text into the dialog box and hit enter.

ok, the ez codes were not visible b/c i had the "plain text" formatting selected---thanks a lot!

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

Pleasure.

Welcome, by the way!

Mr.P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

deadcity12 · Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

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thermodynamics and love are real. God and Santa Clause are imaginary

please explain how love is more real than god, also please explain how god and santa clause are analogous

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spent most of my life studying both the methods and results of science

many who have not, still have this faith--this is what i was speaking to, not necessarily any particular individual here. also, could you not have studied both the methods and results of a particular religious tradition and learned to be "confident" in its results and conclusions?

note: i present these questions only to further the dialogue---no offense should be taken to the questions themselves, or the way in which they are presented...also, please note that i ask many times knowing full well that i am a glutton for intellectual punishment...

deadcity12 · Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

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Only one is testable and convincing

mr p., many spiritual and religious people would take issue with this statement--those who have tested faith, religion, etc and have been convinced...

Jeremy1952 · Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

deadcity12

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please explain how love is more real than god

There is a concept called "love" and a concept called "god". The concept called "love" refers to an actual physical thing: in this case a pattern of neural connections and hormonal levels in a living being, with identifiable and testable attributes. (People in love behave differently from other people). The concept called "god" refers to… nothing at all. It stops at the level of concept; there is no referent in the physical universe.

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As, also please explain how god and santa clause are analogous

People believe in them; they are said to have attributes that are known to be impossible and do things that cannot be done. Each is a character of the human imagination, invented to fill particular needs or desires of human beings, and each is better explained in terms of psychology than in terms of anything concrete.

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Quote: "spent most of my life studying both the methods and results of science" many who have not, still have this faith--this is what i was speaking to, not necessarily any particular individual here.

In the modern world, we are surrounded by science's poor stepsister, Technology; it allows even those with no knowledge of science to see for themselves that it works.

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also, could you not have studied both the methods and results of a particular religious tradition and learned to be "confident" in its results and conclusions?

No. Since all religions are false and all gods impossible, it doesn't mater which one you studied; real, measurable results are never achieved and the conclusions are always based on air.

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note: i present these questions only to further the dialogue---no offense should be taken

None taken! This is my idea of fun.

If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything. Daniel Dennett, 1984

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

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Etc. Oh, they don't say they know every detail… but it seems to me that the whole purpose of religion is pretending to have the ultimate answer

Bingo...it has always seemed to me that religion discourages asking any questions. You just gotta accept the answers God (the church/leaders/yadda) give you.

It is a shameful promotion of ignorance.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

tagold · Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

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Religion explains everything. Just not rationally...and without proof.
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Well, actually I haven't met any religion so far that claimed such thing

Well, I must beg to differ again. In my experience they all do. "God created everything". Isn't that one, massive explanation of everything?

Well, I guess this depends on what to understand under "explanation".

For me statements like "There is always cause for everything what happens" or "All nature's laws and processes can be mathematically described" while universal in its claims don't seam to be claims to describe everything. I do not see the difference in this regard with "God created everything" statement. Do you?

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... but it seems to me that the whole purpose of religion is pretending to have the ultimate answer

Why "pretending"? They for sure have "ultimate answer", it is another question whether it is correct one or not.

My point was they do not try to give answer to everything but to quite a few questions.
Yes some of this questions are quite fundamental in there effect on one's everyday life but this doesn't make them "the only questions".

Jeremy1952 · Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

At the atheist meetup last night, someone asked the question, "why does it seem that atheists are mostly former jews or roman catholics?"

I gave the question some thought, and answered that the reasons are different. Judaism has always encouraged education, learning, and questioning. Pat agreement isn't part of the religon. There are a few things that are beyond questioning, but not many. So it seems to me that this tradition opened the door to a godless understanding of our world.

Roman catholics, on the other hand, are at the other extreme. Their religion is so conservative that it does not adapt to the changing world the way other religions do. I don't say this as a bad thing, by the way. I actually respect RC's more than other christians for "sticking to their guns". Because there is a market place of religon, and religions are being selected by a process very similar to biological natural selection; and although this leads to succesfful religions, where is the truth in it all?

If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything. Daniel Dennett, 1984

Jeremy1952 · Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Belief in God

tagold

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For me statements like "There is always cause for everything what happens" or "All nature's laws and processes can be mathematically described" while universal in its claims don't seam to be claims to describe everything. I do not see the difference in this regard with "God created everything" statement. Do you?

Absolutely. "God created" is a specific claim of causality. There is no causality in "processes can be mathematically described"; which, by the way, is impossible to prove and may not be true, anyway

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Why "pretending"? They for sure have "ultimate answer", it is another question whether it is correct one or not

I suppose this hinges on one's usage of the word "sex", I mean, "answer". "To have an answer" is a phrase which, to me, implies a true/valid answer, not just any old answer. Because if you don’t think it is true why bother having it?

If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything. Daniel Dennett, 1984


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