Indeed you will, for there is no lying going on here.




"Vermaseren believes that much of what was percieved was merely in the eye of the christian beholder (which is not of course to question the sincerity of the belief), and notes that our knowledge of metroac ritual is mainly derived from early christian sources which inevitably discuss the conflict in terminology supportive of their position." p.41.

"It is easy to see how an adaption of the Cybele cult would have been attractive to pagan intellectuals. Fertility cults were widespread in antiquity; this would give a rejuvenated metroac cult both a broad-based appeal via syncretism while retaining a form of unity with which to counter Christian worship. ... Cybele also had several other potential advantages in the battle against Christ. Unlike Christianity, the metroac cult was indubitably old, venerability being much valued as mark of validity in antiquity. Moreover, Christianity also laboured under the problem of being "new" and was seen as the product of a rootless group who had repudiated their mores maiorum." p.43

"We can see therefore how the changes in the metroac cult might not have been merely mutations which took place unconsciously over time to ensure the cult's survival in the religious marketplace of antique polytheism, but could rather have been a deliberate attempt to produce a rival to Christianity. This rival, born as a reaction to the Christian agenda, used the symbolism and ethos of the Christian church while claiming them firmly for paganism." p. 44

"The taurobolium which involved the aspersion of the initiate in the blood of the sacrificed bull was seen as a counterpart to the Christian baptism by immersion in water. ... The exact relationship of the parallels between the two groups is highly problematic. One strand in the history of religion has sought to see Christian ritual as simply a variation on the theme of pagan mystery cults: in other words to see Christianity as just another mystery cult, albeit one which through imperial patronage eclipsed in the course of time all other. Such a view however becomes untenenable when examined closely; the two groups have strikingly different agendas. ... the same time as the change in the taurobolium towards being a rite of personal redemption occurred."" p. 40, 42


Exodus 24:5-8 "And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD. And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words."


"I am the essence of a god, the son of a god, the messenger of a god; I have come that I may bathe in the Field of Rushes and that I may go down to the Field of Kenzet. The Followers of Horus cleanse me, they bathe me, they dry me, they recite for me 'The Spell for Him who is on the Right Way', they recite for me 'The Spell of Him who ascends', and I ascend to the sky." The Pyramid Texts, Utterance 471 as translated by R.O. Faulkner





"At dusk, mother monkeys bathe their infants in the ceremonial fountains,..." nytimes.com/2007/11/14/world/asia/14del ... delhi.html



There is nothing written here that contradicts my previous post.

As for the tripe below, it appears this Attis thing has really left the troll butt hurt. To address the troll without feeding the troll-
Once again, the troll has linked an article and tried to pass it off as supporting troll's position, when in fact it does no such thing. And even brining up what would have been offensive to the Jews shoots troll in his own foot, as Christianity likewise had many features found offensive by Jews, many of which are even recorded in the New Testament itself, not the least of which is the claim that Jesus is the son of god and god incarnate, for which the Jews tried to stone him, on more than one occasion. But more to the point at hand, this is simply something that is not addressed in Lisdorf's document that troll linked. In fact, "jew", "jews", "jewish", and "Judaism" do not even show up in the document at all.
It is also very odd that troll would include contract with the blood of a dead animal in his list of what is offensive to jews when several old testament covenants were consecrated with animal blood, Abraham had to mutilate an animals in Genesis 15, there's the aforementioned taurobolium(tom-ay-to/tom-aH-to) when Moses sprinkled the blood of the covenant on the people, and the perpetual blood that had to be offered on the altar in the tabernacle, etc.
Moreover, castration was never brought up as a point of parallel with Christianity. Murdock mentioned it as the method of Attis's death, but she never tried to say that had any influence on Christianity.
Although, even that much is not outside the realm of possibility, seeing as how Jesus made mention of how some would become eunuchs for the kingdom of god, and Paul practiced and encouraged celibacy.
Plus, none can deny the influence the Attis cult had on Mithraism, and yet Mithraism has no known practice of castration or celibacy. So to deny influence based on the inclusion of castration just does not work.
But nonetheless, these were never argued as points of parallel between the two cults, and the points that have been argued are the points troll continue to skim over and not address directly and specifically. Because troll cannot.
Nor have these specific points of parallel been addressed in Lisdorf's document either.
It has already been demonstrated that Attis became identified with Osiris & Dionysus by the 1st century, and both of those characters have been PROVEN to have been believed to have returned from the dead in PRE-christian sources. Thus by way of his conflation with them, Attis inherits their death & resurrection by the 1st century, end of story. Same with the hanging of an effigy in a tree and even the non-sexual birth, but I'll cover those some other time.
Attis had just as many differences with Osiris and Dionysus and Mithras as he did with Jesus, and yet that didn't stop Attis from becoming syncretic with Osiris and Dionysus and Mithras. There is no attempted argument troll has offered that has withstood scrutiny.

I continue to suggest that interested parties read the full chapter for themselves rather than rely on me or Vishnu to provide our selectively editted versions.

However, allow me to wet your appetite by answering Vishnu's parsing with my more complete section.




As for Vishnu's claim that the Israelites in the Old Testament practiced taruobolium I caution he or she to be more circumspect with facts. The term taruobolium, while derived from the Latin for bull and involving the sacrifice of the same, the earliest reference to it dates from 134 A.D. While Vishnu is correct that the Israelites sacrificed bulls it was not referred to as a taurobolium and was for a decidedly different purpose. Conflating the two opens one up to accusations of playing loosely with the facts at a minimum and suspicion of intentional deception is not far behind.

One additional note. The Google-Books posting is only for about half of the festschrift but I was interested enough to obtain a copy of the full volume. It is a beautiful copy with some promising chapters that are not available at Google Books. I intend to read them and I will share any interesting insights I come across especially with respect to Attis.

I found the attached paper while looking for online material by Vermaseren. It is an excellent example of how material should be presented and it pretty much knocks the Christianity was influenced by Attis off the table to boot. There are a number of issues within the Cybele/Attis ritual which would have been offensive to Jews; castration, men dressing as women, contact with the blood of a dead animal. Additionally, the history of the spread of Cybele/Attis and its size also work against the theory.