Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS BLOGS BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:35 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 
April 2004 - Intellectual Midwifery 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 11883
Images: 0
Location: Florida
Highscores: 145
Thanks: 735
Thanked: 339 times in 271 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post April 2004 - Intellectual Midwifery
This thread is for discussing Massimo Pigliucci's April 2004 Rationally Speaking column entitled Intellectual Midwifery.




N. 48, April 2004
Intellectual Midwifery


The philosopher David Hume allegedly once said that "truth springs from arguments amongst friends" (I have actually been unable to source this quote). Perhaps, and yet many Americans don't think it is polite to engage in arguments with other people on anything worth discussing, like politics, sex or religion (this doesn't include fundamentalists engaging in "witnessing," which isn't a discussion at all, but rather an aggresive monologue to save your soul).

Even should one be lucky enough to join a discussion group (on the Internet or, more rare and precious finding, in flesh and blood at the local bookstore or coffee house), it seems like people simply talk past each other, using the other person's time at presenting her views only to catch their breadth and begin thinking what to say next. I know because I've been guilty of precisely such behavior when I was younger, obviously motivated more by the urge to parade my knowledge, or to "convince" my opponent, rather then... well, rather then what? What exactly is the purpose of discussion supposed to be?

Let us go back to the first written record of people engaging in discussions of a philosophical bent: Plato's dialogues allegedly reporting what Socrates said to his interlocutors. Socrates often explains that his role is that of a philosophical midwife, not to tell people what the truth is, but rather to help them get out the truths that are already inside them. For example, in Theaetetus, Socrates tells the title character: "Well, my art of midwifery is in most respects like theirs; but differs, in that I attend men and not women; and look after their souls when they are in labour, and not after their bodies: and the triumph of my art is in thoroughly examining whether the thought which the mind of the young man brings forth is a false idol or a noble and true birth."

Today educators world-wide still think of the "Socratic method" as the best way to teach: not by lecturing students, but by engaging them in a discussion that leads the students to a better understanding of the matter at hand. What is left out of the modern version is another important aspect of Socrates' approach: that the teacher stands to gain as much as the pupil. Again, from Theaetetus: "And therefore I am not myself at all wise, nor have I anything to show which is the invention or birth of my own soul, but those who converse with me profit."

Now, I actually doubt that Socrates was as ignorant as he professed to be, or that he had as much to learn from his interlocutors as they from him. The same doubt should reasonably be raised in the broader case of any teacher-student relationship (after all, if you don't know anything more than your students do, what business do you have in teaching them?). However, Socrates' attitude applies perfectly to the way we should all approach discussions with peers, if we wish to learn something from the activity, and incidentally to avoid coming across as insufferable know-it-alls (once again, I speak from personal experience...).

Come to think of it, here are some of the best reasons why we should engage in discussions to begin with: 1) To better understand our own positions; nothing shows us our contradictions and limitations as to have to clearly explain what we think to somebody else. 2) To better understand our interlocutor's thinking, to see if there is something good in it (Socrates' "noble and true birth"), or to find better ways to challenge his mistaken ways (Socrates' "false idols"). 3) To involve and stimulate additional people to think and to participate in the dialogue. It isn't only that discussions with more than two participants are more fun and likely to be more informative; more importantly, informed dialogue is at the core of a functional liberal democracy. 4) To keep our own mind open to change; changing your mind on something important is a liberating experience, not to mention one that is likely to dramatically improve both your sense of self-esteem and your standing with your friends or colleagues.

Notice that the obvious objective missing from this list is what most people take to be the only or chief goal of engaging in a discussion: to change one's "opponent's" mind. That may happen as a side product of attempting to achieve the four aims referred to above, but more likely than not this will occur only over a long period of time, not instantly in the middle of the dialogue. After all, discussions aren't religious experiences, and changing one's mind shouldn't be akin to a conversion. Rather, we need to digest the arguments advanced against our point of view, think of possible counter-arguments, try the latter out on different people, read some more about the issue at hand. Only then we can feel justified in changing our opinion, rather then simply be bullied into submission.

And remember, as Thomas Babington (1800-1859) wrote in his Southey's Colloquies, "Men are never so likely to settle a question rightly as when they discuss it freely."

"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them"



Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:36 pm
Profile Email YIM WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 11883
Images: 0
Location: Florida
Highscores: 145
Thanks: 735
Thanked: 339 times in 271 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: April 2004 - Intellectual Midwifery
Well this essay sure got some activity. ;)

Chris

"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them"



Fri May 14, 2004 12:15 am
Profile Email YIM WWW
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Sophomore


Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 266
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: April 2004 - Intellectual Midwifery
Perhaps because there was nothing in the essay to disagree with!

Americans aren't very good at arguing in general from what I've noticed. They tend to think of an argument as a fight rather than a spirited debate of ideas.

They can, however, be taught. I enjoy arguing...my wife did not know how. We had the classic toilet seat discussion...Her position, obviously, was that the seat should be down at all times when the toilet was not in use...and I, appropriately, took the opposite stance.

She was infuriated by the time we finished arguing, and couldn't understand why I was so calm. Once she calmed down we just discussed arguing...and she has now gained the skill of arguing without malice...to keep it on an intellectual rather than an emotional level.

What really brought it home for her is that while she was angry during that argument she couldn't counter my argument. It was just as inconvenient for me to lift the seat as it was for her to put it down.

Once she learned to argue properly she re-engaged the discussion and won. *sighs* A stupid health technicality. More germs are spread through the air if the seat remains up.
WHy did I have to marry a biologist?




Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:16 am
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Master Debater


Joined: May 2004
Posts: 24
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: April 2004 - Intellectual Midwifery
RickU

Funny post. Mind if I forward it to a few friends?

Karen




Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:47 pm
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Sophomore


Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 266
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: April 2004 - Intellectual Midwifery
Be my guest.




Thu Jul 01, 2004 11:39 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:

Recent Posts 
Blindness by Jose Saramago for next discussion?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:34 am

heledd

Is evolutionary chance impossible?

Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:10 am

Robert Tulip

Did the man "Jesus" exist?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:32 pm

Robert Tulip

A SPY AT HOME book trailer on YouTube!

Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:24 pm

readermark

Trying to get the hang of this

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:41 pm

Suzanne

New member seeking to make friends

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:36 pm

Suzanne

Can a scientist define Life?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:45 am

johnson1010

Life is chemistry

Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:26 am

johnson1010


BookTalk.org Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Featured Book Suggestions
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
    

Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.

Support BookTalk.org 
If you appreciate BookTalk.org please consider donating a few dollars to help keep us online. See who supports us.
Make a donation
RECENT DONATIONS:
• giselle - $50 January
• nomsisa - $50 September
• giselle - $50 September

Featured Books

Recent Blogging 

The 12th Disciple and Poor Richard's Downtown Colorado Springs

The 12th Disciple is now being stocked at Poor Richard's Bookstore in Colorado Springs. We're happy to have the title at such a historic location in Colorado Springs. If… more

Posted: 13 days ago
by 12th disciple

...

For most of us, a very big part of our lives will be a dark place, we wont realize it. We live, we eat, we have some fun, we go to school, we sleep. But it will come the time, when… more

Posted: 14 days ago
by aracelip7

Hello world!

Welcome to BookTalk.org Blogs. This is your first post. Edit or delete it, then start blogging!

See those links at the very top of the page? To get into your control panel for… more

Posted: 15 days ago
by drewdamato

There's an election this year?

The 12th Disciple's endorsement for a Presidential Candidate...we'll pass. If many haven't learned over the past several decades, centuries, and millennia, the gover… more

Posted: 21 days ago
by 12th disciple

New Books

So I've been looking for new books to read, but I haven't found any that have caught my attention lately. I want to try and venture out into a different genre, but I'… more

Posted: 27 days ago
by spazzymagee

Unethical Apple

For those who constantly gripe about jobs being sent overseas, focus your anger on this. Read about how one of the most profitable companies prided by American citizens offshores t… more

Posted: 28 days ago
by vetwriter

Role of the Individual Augmentee in the Military

An article of mine regarding the role of the Individual Augmentee in the military has been published on Blogging Authors. Read the article at:

http://bloggingauthors.com/bl… more

Posted: 30 days ago
by vetwriter

Hello world!

Welcome to BookTalk.org Blogs. This is your first post. Edit or delete it, then start blogging!

See those links at the very top of the page? To get into your control panel for… more

Posted: 31 days ago
by mryan2930

A Second In Time

Its January 1945 and British, Commonwealth, US and POWs from various other nationalities are finally awaiting liberation from the various camps in Eastern Europe, where some of the… more

Posted: 31 days ago
by carolemct

Hiding The Details In The Fine Print Still Works

A good friend of mine recently received a pre-paid credit card. She went to pay for a $20.00 gas purchase only to later find out that over a $70.00 hold was placed on her card for… more

Posted: 32 days ago
by life is a business

There’s No Such Thing As A Blank Canvas In Life

While watching the bube tube (TV) this morning I stumbled on a motivational speaker saying “today marks a new year, you now have a blank canvas to work from.”

After hearing th… more

Posted: 40 days ago
by life is a business

Happy New Year!

The 12th Disciple wishes you and yours a Happy New Year. Many of us hope and pray that 2012 will bring better leadership in the government of the United States, better leadership i… more

Posted: 41 days ago
by 12th disciple

Does fiction have a role to play in educating people about real events?

The Cat & The Nightingale Saga, the docu drama version of The Weekend Trippers, also tells Rifleman Ted TaylorÂ’s story but in a slightly different way. It too tells of the… more

Posted: 42 days ago
by carolemct

Out With The Woe Is Me And in With The “Look At Me”

In 2011 I published my book; in the book I outlined 9 Key Principles to Prosperity (happiness).  Like many of you, I walked through 2011 with the Woe is me attitude. When… more

Posted: 42 days ago
by life is a business

Original Thoughts, Do They Exist Anymore?

More and more these days I see people using social media to quote what someone else has said. I see people posting their favorite rappers lyrics, lines from movies and what seems t… more

Posted: 43 days ago
by life is a business

14th December. Wednesday

IÂ’m down the school for the first time today. My friend visited two weeks ago and said it was chaos. They must have heard I was back because everything is tidy and orderly today… more

Posted: 50 days ago
by heledd

...

I'm quite positive that everyone who enters this site has the same thing in mind: fear of seeing a world without books, without literature. We see it everyday, more people qui… more

Posted: 51 days ago
by aracelip7

12 December, Monday

For once in my life I step off the plane at Banjul, and donÂ’t get a rush of elation. I went home to see my daughterÂ’s twins safely delivered. They are all well now, but IÂ’m goin… more

Posted: 54 days ago
by heledd

It's the Most Wonderful Time of the Year...For Some.

The 12th Disciple is up and running. We have a page on Facebook if you'd like to come join us for updates and other miscellaneous debris.

Hanukkah runs from the 20th-28th. … more

Posted: 56 days ago
by 12th disciple

Handle Your Business!

Last weekend I witnessed a couple of family members literally fall apart at the seams because of a problem with a couple of their employees. They recently opened a group home, and … more

Posted: 57 days ago
by life is a business





BookTalk.org Chat Room 
Enter the BookTalk.org Chat Room

Enter our Chat [0]

Chat Room Always Open!

Tell your friends when to meet you
in the BookTalk.org Chat Room.

Booktalk.org on Facebook 


If you enjoy business bestsellers and would like to expand your business knowledge check out the quality book summaries offered by the world's leading book summary company.




BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSBLOGSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICY

BOOK FORUMS FOR ALL BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
Lost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book Selections

cron
Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2011. All rights reserved.
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca
Display Pagerank