Al Queda Versus the Soviet Empire

GOD defiles Reason

Quote:
Frank: But really, if it had been a realistic possibility we would have offered it up and it would have been entertained. It wasn’t.

The fact that no one did these things meant that we were moving ahead emotionally and could not entertain such reasoning.

Starting a war for emotional reasons? I can't believe what I'm hearing this from an independent freethinker, Frank.

And diplomacy and proper use of our military is always a realistic possibility.

Quote:
[GDR: the hatred for Saddam Hussein was manufactured and manipulated by our government and media. Working hand in hand like two lovers going off on a fishing trip.]

Frank: Really? Can you prove this or are you just saying what you believe?
Because remember some of our intelligence came from sources outside of our own.

I wasn't talking about our Intelligence. I was talking about the vengeful feelings you mentioned.

Quote:
Frank: This has never been said or even hinted at as far as I know. The reasoning for the Iraqi invasion was done on its own merits even though they turned out to be false.

That appears to be a stark contradiction to this statement you made:

Quote:
Frank: On 9/11 a sleeping dragon had been awakened and it was intent on vengeance. Everyone in this country was pissed off, from the president right down to me and my neighbor, a measured response was not a realistic possibility, emotions had been forced out and anything less that a full scale action would have been met with cries of “when will justice be done”. Did Saddam’s forces really pose a threat? No, but we were not sure at the time and we were hot for blood, any scapegoat would do to quench our blood lust.

Quote:
Frank: Think of it like this. We were really pissed off, the guys who pissed us off are no where to be found, then this guy shows up and he had pissed us off before and is doing it again. Already in a bad mood our response is that much stronger.

Frank, it seems to me that you're giving reasons and excuses for invading Iraq that aren't much different from the reasons you think the Islamic Jihadists use for wanting to kill us.

We can't be starting wars because of our feelings and moods. That sounds more fanatical than fighting for one's religion.

Frank 013

[GDR: Starting a war for emotional reasons? I can't believe what I'm hearing this from an independent freethinker, Frank.]

I never said it was the right thing to do, but I do believe that the people at the top of our nation and the bulk of our populace went along with what they say they knew was flimsy intelligence simply because they were pissed off.

My reasons for supporting the war were vastly different from the beginning. I really did not give a hoot why Bush decided to invade, in my opinion it should have been done when we were there the first time, and it was simply unfinished business.

[GDR: And diplomacy and proper use of our military is always a realistic possibility.]

Than why is it that it so often fails, especially in the Middle East, and in this case had failed for more than a decade.

[GDR: That appears to be a stark contradiction to this statement you made:]

Does it, Bush offered up Intel for the Iraq invasion, apparently it was quite transparent to everyone but us Americans. Why would that be? Could our anger have been clouding our judgment? Is it possible that a barely concealed prejudice had developed allowing us to see only the bad in Muslims?

There is nothing outside the free thinking arena to offer up these possibilities. I see what I see, if the evidence was thin, and obviously so, than there must be another reason why many of the congress and house agreed to war despite these concerns.

[GDR: Frank, it seems to me that you're giving reasons and excuses for invading Iraq that aren't much different from the reasons you think the Islamic Jihadists use for wanting to kill us.]

I am not trying to justify the actions, like I said, to me it was not only over due but inevitable. As a martial artiest I know to fight out of anger is a bad thing, but I recognize that it happens and I can fall victim to it just like anyone else.

[GDR: We can't be starting wars because of our feelings and moods. That sounds more fanatical than fighting for one's religion.]

I agree we shouldn’t, but we clearly can, that’s what can happen when you piss off a whole nation of emotional humans.

Later

GOD defiles Reason

Ohhh, my sweet sweet NeoCon

Why have you forsaken your brothers in arms...

We may just have to accept that the pain and suffering and the heavy costs never had sound reason
And those at the top simply do not and will not ever care

my king layeth down before you

Frank 013

[GDR: Why have you forsaken your brothers in arms...]

I have not, I still believe we are doing the right thing, maybe for the wrong reasons but I do not care so much about the reasoning. Also I think it’s good to let the international community know that we do get pissed off and will kick some ass if pressed.

[GDR: We may just have to accept that the pain and suffering and the heavy costs never had sound reason]

If an attack on our soil and ousting an evil dictator who killed his own people by the thousands, let his son’s rape and terrorize the populace, destroyed whole villages for a single persons transgression, lied and violated a legal surrender document, if these things were not sound reasoning I do not know what is. I do not need any other reasons.

[GDR: And those at the top simply do not and will not ever care]

I really can’t speak to this, we have all seen the footage of Bush looking like he couldn’t care less about some situation or another. But you may or may not be aware of this; a program was instituted not long after this war started. A general of the armed forces must attend the funeral of every soldier that dies on active duty during this conflict. This was implemented by our uncaring top politicians so that our military leaders would understand the cost of war, and their decisions when planning missions.

Later

Niall001

Quote:
I have not, I still believe we are doing the right thing, maybe for the wrong reasons but I do not care so much about the reasoning.

See, I also think that Saddam was someone who had to be removed, but where I differ from you is in that I think that the reasoning is crucial.

The US did not invade to liberate the Iraqi people. The welfare of the Iraqi people is not top of Washington's priorities and this is reflected in their strategies and their choice of tactics. In the end, any invasion of Iraq that did not place the welfare of the Iraqi citizen as its top most priority is a bad thing

Full of Porn*

http://plainofpillars.blogspot.com

Frank 013

Niall

I do not agree, I think the Iraqi people may win out by default. at least they have a say in their current government, they may still screw it up, but they have a chance now that they would never had had with Saddam and his sons in power.


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