A place where women rule.

Ophelia · Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: A place where women rule.

I just visited Penelope's blog, in which she mentioned
A Thousand Splendid Suns and later that she didn't read books with a feminist theme. I don't either, but feminism is something i'm very much aware of.

I thought once again that in other parts of the world men are not necessarily the enlightened beings we know in the west-- though even here, enlightenment did not come easily or painlessly to our grandfathers (for instance, women only got the right to vote in 1945 in France).

We often think of women in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, but I think in many respects the situation of African women is even worse, only it does not attract foreign attention so much because there are no veils, nothing visible for cameras to film.

I looked up this story I had heard about of a group of Kenyan women who just gave up on the whole lot of the dreadful local males, and built their own village where they live with their children (I don't understand how the men were persuaded to stay out though).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/08/AR2005 070801775.html

For a video of the women (interview in English, text in French):

http://www.kewego.fr/video/iLyROoaftqih.html

President Camacho · Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject:

This really makes me think about evolution in general.

I remember reading about the warring city-states in early Greece. Before that was warring civilizations in early Mesopotamia. Every major civilization, for that matter, in the west and in the east has been preceded by tribal war until one tribe overcame the others and consolidated the separate tribes in order to create a single civilization, usually with one culture having a more significant impact than the other.

Then I think about African societies like these. How have they been allowed to survive?

I think about the early cultures that have been conquered. Were they too weak because they failed to cooperate with one another for a common defense? Yes, these people would have definitely been over-powered by those that formed large groups.

Then I think about those who not only came together for common defense but were able to create a society where every man was able to produce more per man. More food, more homes, more ....

Then technology through the support structure for 'thinkers'.

Advantages and advantages and advantages... more and more and more...elimination of weaknesses... a step ahead the invaders, a step ahead those that we want to plunder from... PROGRESS.

It makes me wonder how a civilization that forces its women to seek shelter AWAY from the men... a division... is able to survive. Shouldn't an invading tribe be able to come in and steal these women away and kill their children? To force them into unions with the invaders and leave the conquered males without a chance to procreate?

Why isn't nature allowing this to happen?

Penelope · Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:58 am Post subject:

President Camacho · Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:22 am Post subject:

Great point. The question of ethics/morals is too much to ignore.

Where did it come from though? Why do we care? There needs to be a reason why we care just like there is a reason why we walk on two legs.

Could it be that the tribes that cooperated and cared for one another formed more cohesive units and had a competitive advantage over those that didn't?

If this is the case then it is another reason that evolution needs to be perceived as a tool that effects change. Is that change always good?

I also think about primitive forms of life on earth. These microbial creatures made their food through fermentation and excreted methane. Some forms are still around today! Scientist say that they would have exhausted their food supply if it wasn't for the evolution. Evolution produced Cyanobacteria. These tiny bacteria now had the ability to utilize the sun's energy through photosynthesis. Amazingly enough they were so awesome that they sucked out a significant portion of the world's built up greenhouse gas methane and pumped the atmosphere full of oxygen. There were no oxygen breathing animals at the time to suck up all this oxygen. Earth cooled and entered an ice age and a mass extinction event occurred.

The evolved attribute of 'caring' may prove to be our photosynthesis.

Penelope · Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:46 am Post subject:

Ophelia · Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:49 am Post subject:

Mr President,

I don't think of this in terms of evolution making it impossible for men and women to be together, and needing to bring in the special police squad from outer space to sort us out.

The general world-wide evolution is for women to take on more responsibilities and work their way towards equality, but in some parts of the world the changes are painfully slow.

The Kenyan village in the article is an example of that particular moment in history when the women have heard of what was happening outside their villages, and start thinking that they no longer have to endure the type of treatment their mothers have endured since prehistoric times.
The woman leader speaks English, was invited to visit the United Nations, got some advice there... For the moment a large number of the traditional males refuse to see the light.

If you think of the picture of the prehistoric couple you show in your blog, the social contract then was that the man carried a stick: his roles were bringing food (hunting) and protecting his women and children against enemy tribes (ie, other men). His strength and qualities as provider and protector also made him unchallenged lord and master within the family.

I noticed that in that picture they had no luggage to carry, but I read that, again in Africa, when a tribe moved , and as they had no pack animals, the women did all the carrying, as the men took their role as armed protectors seriously and didn't want to be distracted from it (well, my interpretation).
In some African tribes, the men don't even work in the fields, so that leaves defence and council meetings of wise men for speeches and tribal decisions.

In this case there were local wars, so the women were not even protected anymore, and were then rejected for having been raped.
That's a description of a traditional society in a shambles, in which the women were getting nothing in return for holding their side of the contract.

It's an extreme situation, but it doesn't mean that humans can't sort themselves out .

For example, in that village of women and children, perhaps the next generation of males would be wiser than their fathers?
The village was visited by foreign tourists, so that would open a window to other customs.
Those women were also managing to send their kids to school for the first time, and usually that's the crucial step: the girls learning to read.

I read a review of a book several years which described a situation in China in the first half of the twentieth century.
It started with two women announcing that they would not get married (I imagined they found the prospect of life-long servitude to the husbands and inlaws unappealing) and they bought a house where they did some work from which they could live-- at the time it was a scandalous decision to make in a very rigid and traditional society, but I think it was made possible by the fact that there were foreigners living in China; later on in China some of the men themselves didn't want the old ways anymore.
These women were then joined by a few others-- it never spread to a colony or a villlage though if I remember correctly, just the one house.

Has anybody heard of this book? Perhaps I' ll add it to Ralph's riddles, I certainly haven't managed to google to yahoo the answer.

Penelope · Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:55 am Post subject:

Mr Pres and Ophelia - This anecdote seems very apt to this thread!

A little girl was watching her mother prepare the leg of lamb joint for the oven.
'Why do you cut off the little bone from the end of the joint, Mum?'

'Because my mother always did', said the mother

then the mother asks her mother - why she cut off the knuckle from a leg of lamb.....'because my mother did' is the reply.

Then the mother's mother asks her mother why she cut this small bone from the joint....'because it wouldn't fit into my roasting tin otherwise'.

Was the reply.

Moral - Don't always trust perceived wisdom. Smile

DWill · Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject:

It's an unfamiliar idea to me that evolution functions through social or cultural transmission. Are you (Pres. Commacho) talking about the Darwinian process, or are you just drawing a parallel? I certainly see societies evolving technologically, but this is a use of the word that isn't connected with natural selection, I tend to think. There could be disagreement on this, but the change that we've seen over a couple millennia seems to be just that, change, but not corresponding to physical changes which evolution depends on (even the development of compassion would be a physical change, wouldn't it?) Sorry, this is not as clearly said as I would like it to be.
DWill

ralphinlaos · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:40 am Post subject:

Penelope, I think your anecdote was pertinent to many of the threads here. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Ralph

Penelope · Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 5:12 am Post subject:


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