This thread is an open discussion of how our forums are designed. Every single member is welcome to participate in this discussion. But please try to offer CLEAR and constructive suggestions and feedback. Please stick around and participate in this ongoing discussion. If you make a suggestion return to see what other people thought of your suggestion. This will be a discussion that talks about the pros and cons of each idea.

The goal of this thread is to look at ALL of our forums and address these questions:

Do we currently have our forums in the right categories? Categories we currently use are Community Forums, General Discussion Forums, Non-Fiction Book Discussion Forums, Fiction Book Discussion Forums, Fiction Genre Forums, and The Archives.

Should new categories be added? What would they be called and what would there purpose be?

Do we need any new forums?

Adding a new forum is more complicated than it may appear. What will the name of the forum be? What is its purpose? What is it for and what is it not for? Is there overlap between this new forum and existing forums? Will newcomers easily understand the purpose of this new forum from the forum name and description? What will the description of the forum be? The description is the text that appears below the forum name. What category will this forum go in? This is the big one. We need to know the category and this question cannot be answered nonchalantly. Every category has a specific purpose. Adding a new forum to the wrong category screws up the entire site and makes us confusing to new people just joining or considering to join.

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Interbane, a BookTalk.org Moderator, is suggesting we add a forum for Authors to discuss a variety of subjects. I'll let him post in this thread and explain his idea. But I have long wanted to have a forum specifically for authors. The problem is that every new forum has to have a VERY CLEAR purpose. If we create a forum that overlaps with other forums we create chaos.

My fear with a forum for authors is that authors visiting BookTalk.org will immediately gravitate towards that forum and will spam it with their books. We already have this problem. Authors and publishers spam the 2 suggestion forums AND they have recently started to spam the new category "Fiction Genre Forums."

So what would this new forum be for? A place for current authors and aspiring authors to discuss the process of getting published? If so the forum name MUST reflect this. And then we need a great forum description that will show below the forum name that completely explains the purpose of the forum. And what category would this new forum go into?

I definitely think BookTalk.org needs some new forums so that we become more of a resource for authors and writers. I am open to creating a new category, but if we create a new category we have to have at least 2 forums in the category or it will look stupid. The new forum for authors could go in this new category.

I am also not comfortable with the following so please offer suggestions on how to improve our format with regards to these issues:

- A Passion for Poetry
Should this forum be in the Fiction Book Discussion Forums section OR should it be in the Fiction Genre Forums section? Think really hard about this and if you give your answer explain your answer.

- Short Stories
Again, should this forum be in the Fiction Book Discussion Forums section OR should it be in the Fiction Genre Forums section? All short stories aren't found in books. So does this forum really belong in the Fiction "Book" Discussions Forums section? See the problem? Maybe this is not a huge problem, but visitors make quick judgments on whether or not we look organized and make sense. If we confuse them they will leave and never return.

Should the A Passion for Poetry and Short Stories forums both get moved into the Fiction Genres Forums?

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I'm pretty happy with the forums in the General Discussion Forums section/category. The addition of the new Atheism forum and Bible forum seem to be a hit. In a way they don't necessarily fall into the "General" area as they are quite specific about their scope. But overall I'm happy with this category.

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Now this next question is big. I have been struggling with this for years.

Additional Fiction Book Discussions - I really tend to think this forum is not necessary now that we have added the fiction genre forums. What are your thoughts? We want to avoid overlap. I am considering moving every thread found in the Additional Fiction Book Discussions into the various fiction genre forums. If I cannot figure out where they belong they can be moved to the newly created "General Fiction" forum. Then the "Additional Fiction Book Discussions" forum can be deleted.

In my opinion the new fiction genre forums should be replacing that Additional Fiction Book Discussions.

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But then what about the Additional Non-Fiction Book Discussions forum?

Should we create a new category that mirrors the new "Fiction Genre" category? But are there really non-fiction genres? What are they? Would adding non-fiction genre forums confuse people that see, for example, the General Discussion Forum "Politics, Current Events & History." That forum is for discussing the topics of politics, current events and history, but not necessarily books about those topics. See the problem?

So what are the non-fiction genres?

- Classics
- Biographies

What else? And if we create a forum for Classics and Biographies would this end up being a dead section of the site? We don't want forums that don't get activity. I just don't see any reason for trying to come up with non-fiction genres. But since we don't have thgem perhaps we have to keep the "Additional Non-Fiction Book Discussions" forum. We can just merge all the threads in the "Additional Fiction Book Discussions" into the appropriate fiction genre forums.

Any thoughts on this?

I know this is overwhelming. It is for me too.

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The next area I need help with is in writing better forum descriptions that contain keywords that search engines will find. If a forum is about religion we want to use the word religion not only in the forum name but in the description.

Anyone reading this is welcome to help with these many questions.

I just ask that if you want to help give your comments some real thought. BookTalk.org has been around for about 8 years and I have yet to figure out the perfect format for our forums. Hit-n-run posts here will be appreciated, if they contain constructive criticism, but they won't hold as much weight as posts made by people that really get involved in this discussion. So post and then stick around and participate please.

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The main question to be addressed is...

How can we make BookTalk.org more of a resource for authors and writers?

What I envision the author forum being is a resource for all stages of writing, not just for help in publishing. Ideas about how to structure a story, what to include or not include. Unique words, or words of the day would go here. Tips from other authors. It could also serve as a meeting place if a new author is looking for help on storyline ideas or would like someone to browse over and edit a chapter. Most people aren't authors. They don't realize that it's a full time job, with countless unforeseen hurdles in the storycrafting process. We could be a resource to fill that need.

After going over the forum names, I'm not quite sure what direction is most practical. I'll let it bounce around in my head a bit.



There seems to be a logical division between discussing books that are already written or famous, and doing the writing ourselves. I remember Thomas Hood and Saffron going back and forth with their own poetry for a long time. This is different than discussing poetry. Not different enough to warrant a seperate forum perhaps, but I wonder if it would be a good fit in a creative writing forum, alongside short stories. Or subforums in an author forum. But then, it's almost as if the name should be different. For example, it could be a "Writing" forum rather than "Author" forum. "Writing"(or something similar) doesn't exactly make one think about the publishing aspect of writing. Though, it comes close.



I agree. There's something that catches the eye about seeing your favorite genre displayed, which has drawn me into those forums a number of times. It's like it fires the same neurons as when I go into a bookstore, I gravitate toward certain key sections. Over the years I've grown familiar with the genre titles, so any mention of them grabs my attention, they're familiar to me. "Additional Fiction" comes across as too generic, stale perhaps.

Anyone else have input on forum structure? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Chris,
As for your question about Passion for Poetry. In a library poetry goes under non-fiction. I am not sure what to suggest because I am not sure why you are uncomfortable with where it is. Do you want it to be less visible? Or just in a more logical place?

Jackie

Couldn't it just be labeled "Poetry," and go into the Fiction Genre category? Given what Saffron said, I realize this might be unorthodox, but it seems to me to be a way to place it in a forum that might make sense. If user poetry becomes an issue, it could be given a forum labeled as such ("User Written Poetry" or "Member Poetry" maybe?) and put into the "Writing" Forum that Interbane has wisely suggested? That way there would be a forum for discussing poetry and a separate forum for sharing new poetry/getting feedback from members. Or there could just be a "Share Your Own Poetry" thread within the "Poetry" forum without giving it two separate forums.

Just an idea, not sure how helpful that is in planning because I am in no way savvy about how to set up websites, but I figured any suggestion could at least lead to a better formed idea down the road.

Now that I've looked around a bit to see where Poetry might best fit, I think maybe Fiction Genre might be the right place. I think I see why you aren't quite comfortable with where is current resides.

A Passion for Poetry
“The place for expressing and sharing your passion for poetry”
I never knew that poetry was considered non-fiction, then again, I know little about poetry. Poetry is so different from other forms of writing, fiction or non, that it may be best to keep it separate from the other genres. Also, a forum about the writing of prose may not apply to the writing of poetry. The poetry forum works well, there is a following, and Saffron maintains it very well. I really do believe that it should remain separate, and remain where it is. Poetry is a category in itself.

Short stories appear right underneath A Passion for Poetry. The short story forum could be moved down into the genres. It is a prose form of fiction writing, and may be best to be listed with the other prose genres. As it is now, it looks out of place.

General fiction is confusing. If this forum is to be used to make posts regarding genres that are not listed, it should be moved down to the bottom, under the various fiction genres. This would make people check out the genres offered, and if they do not see the appropriate forum, they can use the general fiction forum. However, the word general may need to be changed. It’s too broad. Maybe alternative genre selections, and make it clear that its purpose is for discussions that cannot be added to the other genres.

The General fiction forum also says in its description that it can be used for the discussion of writing. This sentence could be removed from the General fiction forum description and a new writing forum could be established. This forum could appear under the poetry forum. A writing forum is very exciting, I read Interbane’s post, and found it very informative and useful. If a forum could be created for the purpose of discussing the process of writing, excluding poetry, where writers could have a place to brain storm, discuss problems, and add original pieces of work, this would not only be informative and useful to writers, but would be very entertaining. Poetess posted an original piece of her writing, and I fear that it became lost, if there was a forum specifically for the discussion of the writing process, she would have had a specific place for her to make her post, and may have received some feedback.

I have just started reading a book written by a member/author, Carolyn Sue Morris. I would be very interested in talking with her about her book, she has expressed a desire for comments, but for me to communicate with her regarding this book, I would either have to talk with her on her intro post, which is not appropriate, or create a thread specifically for this book, which I also do not feel is appropriate. A writing forum would be the perfect place for this discussion.

I trust Interbane’s judgment to come up with the appropriate name and purpose for a new writing forum. I think it is a fabulous idea. I do understand Chris’s concern that it could be overwhelmed with authors plugging their books, and that it may oftentimes not be used for the specific purpose, but the idea is worth trying.

I actually would like the poetry and short story forums to have MORE visibility and not less. They both are active forums and deserving of as much attention as possible. This discussion is about finding a logical format for BookTalk.org and not in hiding poetry or short stories. Please trust me on this. Once we figure out a format this will be abundantly clear. I feel we have only started to tap into the potential of both poetry and short stories.

With that said let's look at where both forums currently reside and where Saffron is suggesting they reside. Both the poetry forum and short story forum are currently in the fiction section of BookTalk.org. I have a problem with that and I'll explain in more detail and hopefully make sense. On the surface it might look like nitpicking, but in my opinion our format or forum structure is extremely important. It is what makes or breaks us. When visitors land on our site they need to be able to figure out our forum structure right away.

So let's start by looking at the category we currently have both of these forums in...

Fiction Book Discussion Forums

Notice the word "Fiction" here. Are all short stories works of fiction? I think so. So short stories belong in a fiction section. But are all short stories found in books? No. So short stories are works of fiction, but they don't qualify for a "Fiction Book Discussion" section since they aren't all found in books.

So where do we put the short story forum if not in the "Fiction Book Discussion Forums"? Do we stick it down in the newly created "Fiction Genre Forums" section? Certainly not, because short stories are not a fiction genre. Short stories are simply stories that are short. LOL That made me laugh to type that. Anyways, short stories don't belong down there because there are short stories that belong in each of the various fiction genres we currently have (plus hundreds of other fiction genres).

I am starting to think we need a new section! But we'll get to that in a minute. The point being, short stories should not be crammed into a "Book" section OR a "Fiction Genre" section. I sure hope I explained this well enough where we're all on the same page about short stories.

Now on to the poetry forum. Again, we currently have this in the "Fiction Book Discussion Forums." To me poetry belongs more in the fiction section than the non-fiction section. But I will take Saffron's word for it that poetry is typically found in the non-fiction section in bookstores. My problem, once again, is with the word "book." Is all poetry found in books? No, it definitely isn't. So why place that forum in EITHER of the "Fiction Book Discussion Forums" section or the "Non- Fiction Book Discussion Forums." Whether it is fiction or non-fiction is not my point. Discussing poetry (the purpose of the forum) is not the same as discussing "books."

Am I making sense? This is about placing those two forums in the right section on BookTalk.org and I am starting to think they don't really belong in one of our existing section. But fear not! We can create a new section or many new sections. That's all I am trying to do. I want the site to make logical sense.



I'm starting to see this too. Maybe we need a new section called "Special Forums" and we put all of these more hard-to-classify forums in that section.



As I explained above I think this might lead to confusion. Should a short horror story go in the short story forum or the horror genre forum? Short stories are not an actual genre fiction. Short stories can be from any genre fiction. The "Fiction Genre Forums" section currently has a bunch of forums defined by their genre. Sticking short stories in there means we now have a forum defined not by its genre but by the length of the writing. It is like a hotdog in a bucket of apples. Ok, maybe not like that. LOL I need to get some sleep.

Again, I am thinking that short stories will need to be put into a new section.



Where do you think the following hypothetical thread should be placed?

"What is your favorite genre of fiction?"

To me we need a catch-all forum for posts such as this. Maybe the "General Fiction" name needs to be changed. I don't know. Look up in the "General Discussion Forums" section where we have the religion and politics forums. You'll notice we have a "General Discussion" forum as the catch-all forum. It seems a "General Fiction" forum makes sense. Does anyone else find that forum confusing?



Yes, ignore that please. All of the forum descriptions in the "Fiction Genre Forums" section need to be deleted and new ones created. You're right that we need some new writing forums.

You make perfect sense and I agree with all of your points. I'm afraid I don't have any answers, though, except maybe to create a specific section for Poetry discussion, but then I still wouldn't know where to put Short Stories.

I understand that it is a delicate dilemna, because neither of them are placed where they would get maximum visibility/activity, but there is also no solution within the format that exists now.

Whatever you decide to do, I'm right here with you. I know it'll be awesome once it's all settled.

Based on what we have all discussed so far this is where I see things moving. Please keep posting. Nothing is set in stone. This is a discussion and I really need and appreciate your feedback.

So we create a new section. The exact name of the section will have to be determined. But for now let's call it the "Special Forums" section. I don't know.


SPECIAL FORUMS
A Passion for Poetry
Creative Writing
Short Stories
The Classics

We should all probably search the web and find some web sites that are devoted to writing. We can see which of their forums generate the most activity and then we duplicate those forum names and descriptions. I"m going to go look right now.

... OK, I'm back...

Here are some ideas just to get our creative juices flowing....

The below forums were found on this writing site.

General Writing
Brainstorm ideas and share general writing techniques. Basic resources are allowed in this forum.
Spelling, Punctuation, and Grammar
Discuss anything having to do with spelling, punctuation, or grammar. Need help? Got a debatable situation? Come for help here.
Character Development
Discuss the aspects of character development here. Share your methods on making the characters real.
Publishers
Talk and get help on the various difficulties - and successes - of getting your work published, finished, and finding an appropriate publisher.
Plot Creation
Struggling with the plot of a new novel? This is the place to discuss how one comes up with their ideas and sequences of events.
Book Reviews and Book Reviewing
In this forum you can discuss reviewing, including why and how to review.
Writing Advice

More ideas for forums can be found at http://www.writers.net/forum/

It would be great to start to offer more to writers and people aspiring to get published someday. We can at least offer some forums where these people can interact with each other, ask questions and possibly find answers.

I like this. I think this maybe the best solution. I agree, when someone lands on the site they should be able to find there way around. The easier it is to find what you are looking for the more likely people will feel comfortable and stay around.

I'm sure this is a complicated matter for you to handle, Chris, as the administrator. It's even hard for me to get my mind around, since I don't have the big picture you have. You know the way it is for users of any site--after a while they settle into a certain pattern in how they use the site, filtering out a lot of its features because they only need or want certain ones. It's hard to get the "fresh eyes" to imagine what a person new to the site is confronted with. At this point, what I do is click on "view active topics" and that's about it. I'm not very aware of the forum index as its own page. And you don't even see this when you start at Home.

But I'm always for keeping it simple, and would lean toward a plethora of forums (or of fora, to be hoity-toity) as being not a good idea. As for getting more involved in the writing end of things, maybe, but this would increase the number of forums and is it wise to have another niche?

Sorry this is so general. I'll say something about the poetry forum. I like its name, "A Passion for Poetry." Not sure that carrying this kind of naming over to other forums would be welcome, but maybe. I don't think it makes any particular sense to call P for P a "special" forum, vs. others that aren't special. Poetry goes under "literature" most generally, along with the novel, drama (though I don't know if we've ever read plays), and short fiction (dropping the word "story"). The word "book" doesn't need to be used here, either. Pairing up with "literature" is "nonfiction."

The fiction genre forums seem to be used, though I don't pay attention to them. One thing I'd like to see is for "Currently Reading" to become a forum. This thread is buried somewhere, isn't it, yet I think it's a handy way for members to talk about reading they've picked up and want to share.

OK, starting to see the grand scheme of things. I am happy that you want to promote short stories, we have had success with these because they can be found on line. Members are posting them with a link for easy reading. Maybe this could be included in the description of the forum.

What I like about the "special forum" idea, is that it encourages participation because it gives a directive. Example: check out the newest short story or, share a piece of poetry, or share your thoughts on writing. I also like DWill's idea about "what are you currently reading". This again, encourages participation because the purpose is clear, an action is being asked. They are like active forums, as opposed to pasive forums which merely give a description of the genre of writing. This is great for new members because the discussion is already there, there is a place to go when they first start out. "Currently reading", seems to be the first place new members go. However, I also see DWill's point about keeping it simple. The forums should not only be simple to navigate, but inviting as far as participation. Egads!

Additional fiction; it would make sense to place this below the individual fiction genres. I am getting hung up on the word "book", but I see your dilema. Can I ask, why are you seperating "classics" from the fiction genre section?

I will be of more help once I print out the forum set up as it is now. If it is in front of us, it would be easier to see what we are all talking about, and to visualize any improvements.

I was just providing a brainstorming list of possible forums for the "SPECIAL FORUMS" category. I agree that "The Classics" would best sit in the "FICTION GENRE FORUMS" category. I'm not sure I was to add this as a new forum yet. Again, we don't want to add too many forums or the site becomes overwhelming. And if nobody uses a new "The Classics" forum then it will be a waste of space.

In the "Short Stories" forum we discuss many different short stories. To include links in the forum description (the text directly below the forum name) would require me to be constantly updating that description as the books change over time. And since we can be discussing 3 or 4 short stories concurrently your idea would require 3 or 4 links in the forum description. I think the links to the online stories are better placed inside the actual threads where we're discussing the short stories.