2006: A Proposal for Discussion

GOD defiles Reason

Quote:
Chris: I think we ought to start our first fiction book in November and December so that we're into this new program during the holiday season. This is when people might start to have extra time for reading.

Does anyone else like this idea?

I don't see anything wrong with it.

Quote:
Chris: Howz about 2 nonfiction and 2 fiction each quarter? ...just to keep things easy to understand.

All both of my brain cells think that a 3-1 system is just as easy as a 2-2 system. If you don't get overwhelming support for more fiction, then I would prefer that BookTalk remains primarily nonfiction. But that's just me. A year from now, I would rather look back at the books we list on the forums page and see 12 nonfiction and 4 fiction than see 8 nonfiction and 8 fiction. Do you have any opinion or concern about that yourself, Chris? And remember, whatever we formerly list as our book for discussion doesn't stop anyone from creating their own fiction discussion threads.

I've been imagining what it might be like in the next year with 3 nonfiction books and 1 fiction per quarter. The more I think about it the more I like the idea of having them staggered, too. Imagine if we started all 3 nonfiction books at the same time. It probably isn't likely to happen, but what if none of the books you voted on won? Then you'd be waiting 3 months for the next book sellection. What if all 3 of your books won? Holy shit!! If you wanted to keep up with the rest of the group, thats 3 books you would have to retrieve and start reading at about the same time. Some folks may be able to handle that, but I can't. That would excommunicate the remaining both of my brain cells. But with them staggered, each nonfiction book has its own beginning month. Each month has that little bit of excitement and excuse to have many of us converge and sellect and vote on a book. Those who wish to read and discuss 12 nonfiction books a year can do so dedicating a month for each book.

Chris OConnor

Check out what I'm doing with the forum name for our Q4 book forum. I absolutely cannot put all 4 book images in the description due to only being allowed to use 1000 characters. So maybe I will name the forum with the book titles. I just checked and I can put 4 book titles stacked.

GOD defiles Reason

Chris,
Tell me again why you want to have all 4 books in one forum instead of each book having its own forum.

Chris OConnor

I'll explain - meet me in the chat room!

Chris OConnor

I just ran a search and see that you can only have 100 forums per community. We currently have 33 forums. That leaves us 67 more till we max out. I don't think creating a new forum for each book makes sense if we're going to be doing 4 books each quarter.

GOD defiles Reason

well Shitsky

Chris OConnor

There are so few people engaged in this discussion that I'm almost forced to make decisions solo. Owning the community I know I'm entitled to make these decisions, but I always prefer to involve as many members as possible.

Those of you that have been helping I truly appreciate it. Please continue to do so as long as you can, because this is difficult. I'm really trying to make some decisions that will work for years to come.

marti1900

I don't like lumping the archived discussions under 'Archived Book Discussions'. Call it something else. Who is going to post, or even read, discussions that are titled 'Archive'?

Does this section NEED a title? Anything that smacks of done, gone, over, such as 'former', 'previous', 'older', says "Don't Read...This Is All Done". In today's world of wanting to be current, avant guarde, cutting edge, I think your current layout dooms them to oblivion. They might as well not be visible at all.

Again, only my opinion.

Marti in Mexico

Chris OConnor

So what should we call them?

Older Book Forums

Past Book Forums

Previous Book Discussions

Anyway it goes they will not be on our main forums page. I am hoping to have links to them off the sidebar. I agree that they are not appealing for future posters by calling them archives, but it is not just the name that makes them unattractive. It is the fact that new posts will not show that little symbol for new posts. Only book forums on the main page will show new posts. Yes, people can make posts in the older forums, but we will not know they are there unless we go and look for them in each older book forum.

But should we care? We cannot be perfect.

Chris OConnor

Problem 1:

Having all of the forums out in the open doesn't look right. I think there are two solutions...

1. List the archived forums in a sidebar so that they are permanently visible.
2. Put the archived forums back in an invisible forum (the way it was previously)

Problem 2:

One member doesn't like having multiple book discussions happening in one forum. I can't think of a better way to do it. His idea is to add a new forum for each new book. If we do this, AND stick with the plan of doing 4 books each quarter, we are adding 16 new forums to the community every year. In about 3 years we hit our max forums of 100.

With this technique, of creating a new forum for each individual book, we would keep things far more organized. The bad point is that we're addind multiple books at a time to increase our appeal to a wider audience. For a period of time, while we have a small community, we could easily have some slow forums. Maybe I am putting too mcuh emphasis on this.

Here is a solution that might work. It is a variation of what God defiles Reason has been saying, so he deserves credit for it. Or at least partial credit. ::09

So this is an idea...

We do 3 nonfiction and 1 fiction every quarter, as already decided by the group.

Book discussions older than 1 year (4 quarters) go into the archives and completely off the main forums page (like is was before I tampered with it).

Each new quarter we create 4 new forums, one for each book. We discuss the books in their own forums. When the 4 books are ready to be moved off the main forum page and into the archives I combine all 4 forums into one forum for that quarter.

This doesn't work unless we use common calendar quarters. With staggered discussions we have books overlapping into mutliple quarters. And I am still not willing to do the staggered discussions as it adds too much work to my life and too much complication to the site.

This is what I am saying using the example of the entire year 2006:

As I said we would always have an entire year worth of book forums on the main page. The rest would be hidden. So one year = 16 forums.

This is how our forums would look.

Q4, 2006 - Book 4 (nonfiction)
Q4, 2006 - Book 3 (nonfiction)
Q4, 2006 - Book 2 (nonfiction)
Q4, 2006 - Book 1 (fiction)
Q3, 2006 - Book 4 (nonfiction)
Q3, 2006 - Book 3 (nonfiction)
Q3, 2006 - Book 2 (nonfiction)
Q3, 2006 - Book 1 (fiction)
Q2, 2006 - Book 4 (nonfiction)
Q2, 2006 - Book 3 (nonfiction)
Q2, 2006 - Book 2 (nonfiction)
Q2, 2006 - Book 1 (fiction)
Q1, 2006 - Book 4 (nonfiction)
Q1, 2006 - Book 3 (nonfiction)
Q1, 2006 - Book 2 (nonfiction)
Q1, 2006 - Book 1 (fiction)
Additional Book Discussions
Previous Book Discussions

All forums would use the book title and author and time period in the forum name.

Once they are older than a year all 4 books from one quarter and grouped into one new forum called, for example, "1st Quarter 2006 Book Discussions," and the 4 older forums are deleted. This method means our archived ( or "Previous Book Discussions") forum only grows by 4 forums per year as opposed to 16.

TI kinda like this idea.

Chris OConnor

When I move the book discussions into the archives I will actually we moving the individual threads only. Once they are moved into the new forum they will be grouped in with all the other book discussions. In order to keep them organized in this group of 4 different book discussions each thread will have to have the name of the book in the subject line. I can do this when I move them. I will have to edit the subject lines as I move them and add the title.

Chris OConnor

I'm liking the idea of keeping the forums up top limited to a maximum of eight. Eight forums would be two full quarters of books, which is as far as anyone seems to ever go back anyway.

We'll keep the Additional Book Discussions below that, followed up by the Book Suggestions forum. As soon as I figure out how to resolve the problem with the Book Archives we'll probably see that forum in the top section too.

I'd like to have our four books selected very soon, so that I can contact various web sites and organizations and do somewhat of a press release. The goal will be to get them to mention our upcoming changes on their sites in in their newsletters. Soon I will create a thread here in the BookTalk Development forum so that we can, as a group, design a brief article for such use.

marti1900

OK, I have got the title for the archived book discussions. Ready?

Other Book Discussions That May Interest You

And of course, Tarav is right. People don't post on a forum whose last post is months old or longer.

Marti in Mexico

MadArchitect

Alright, today's my catch-up day. I’ve already written out a point-for-point reply, but that ended up being huge, so I’m going to try to integrate all of my major points. Let’s see how that works out.

Staggered book discussion
I’m going to make a final appeal for this idea, and then I’ll drop it altogether. Ultimately, my advice is, do what's best for you, Chris. I like the staggered book idea, and I think it has some very appealing advantages over the all-at-once scheme, but I wouldn't want you to have to choose between administrating and actually participating in discussion.

Before I get into the details, let me just recap the Big Reason for staggering: it gives visitors a better chance to jump in on discussion. If all four of our book selections are ending at the same precise moment, whether or not a newbie will have the opportunity or inclination to join will depend on the caprice of when they happened to visit the site. The shorter the period between new books beginning and old discussions winding up, the more likely we are to snag new regulars.

And really, because it's less daunting for newbies and old-timers alike. I read multiple books at once -- right now I'm reading no less than nine. But even so, starting and reading four books at once can be intimidating, particular when those books aren't your choice alone. And if it comes down to a choice between reading the BookTalk selections and the books on my own bookshelf, I'll just about always go with the books on my own shelf. Better not to force people to make that choice.

There are minor reasons as well. For instance, staggering start dates would mean that we could have all three non-fiction books chosen by the time we start nominating fiction books. That would allow us to have as a criteria for fiction selections the guideline that it should tie into one or more of the non-fiction selections.

So how do we design the forums for staggered book discussions?

Well, let's start with the four forum plan. Four forums, one for each quarterly book. In the description that shows up in the forum listing, I would include the start and end dates for that book, preferably in bold type, so that newbies know right away how long we've been reading each book and when we're due to start a new one. Directly below those four forums, a forum for suggestions and nominations, as usual. And either at the top of the listings or in the sidebar, a link to a page that displays the itinerary (eg. start and end dates for all the current selections, planned dates for voting procedures, etc) and possibly a series of minutes from the previous selection procedure (I can help with the coding for all this to streamline the work that you actually have to do, Chris -- I suspect that you're doing more coding now than you really need to). Incidentally, I don’t know that it’s necessary to create new forums each month. The forums could be named for the category of the book: “Science and Technology Selection”, “Fiction Selection”, and so on. The title of the current book could appear in bold in the description. When the reading period for that book ends, the admin or mod could move all of the threads to a forum entitled “Previous Fiction Read” or into a single forum in which all of the threads from the previous quarter are lumped together. The forum description has to be changed anyway – it can immediately be changed to reflect the next selection in that category. Seems like less work and less mess to me.

Alternatively: the one forum plan. All of the book discussions for a given quarter (although, the quarter would actually be a series of three overlapping quarters) go into one official "Quarterly Selection" forum. Preferably, I'll find a way to assign different background colors to the threads which correspond to each book -- ie. the "Chapters 1-3" thread for "The Ethical Brain" has a light purple background, while the "Chapters 1-3" thread for "Beneath a Marble Sky" have a light green background -- which should make it easier to distinguish one book's threads for another. Preferably, I also find a way to squeeze a table with an index of threads into the banner at the top of the forum. At the top of the thread listings there would need to be a pinned thread, updated regularly, which lets contributors know what's going on at any given time -- ie. the reading session for "The Ethical Brain" is ending in a week, voting for it's replacement is taking place in the "Voting for Next Quarter's Science and Technology" thread.

I prefer the four forum plan. I think it’ll be easier to navigate and will be more likely to encourage newbies to participate.

In both plans, important information can also be supplied in the announcement box Chris mentioned wanting in the sidebar. Personally, I don't think we should vote for all four books at once, for the simple reason that it gives newbies a very small chance of showing up in time to vote. They'll be stuck for upwards of six months with whatever we selected for that quarter, and they may not feel inclined to stick around. If we're staggering voting as well, then anyone just joining the site will have about an equal opportunity of getting involved in the whole process, which should, theoretically, make them feel more involved and more likely to stay.

I think three major keys to any staggered discussions will be 1) making sure the layout is easy to navigate, 2) making sure the process is as clear as possible, and 3) keeping everyone informed. And a fourth key would be, 4) don't let Chris get swamped, which may mean delegating some responsibility here and there. Keep those in mind, and just about any good plan should work.

Now the big issue that keeps cropping up here is Chris’ work load, and it’s a legitimate concern, so let me address that.

More work
First off, I want to say that I have a great deal of respect for the work that Chris does around here. I know how difficult it can be to keep a site like this fresh – that’s the real concern, it seems: keeping things fresh. That said, I do think Chris could make it easier on himself.

I’d like to take a look at the procedures that you use to get everything up and running. I think there are likely ways to cut down on the amount of work that you have to do in the routine administrative stuff around here. And I think a great deal of time and effort can be saved my delegating responsibility a little more. I know that you’re hesitant to do so, and as a fellow megalomaniac, I commiserate, but I can think of at least a few ways to spread the work out that don’t involve giving out passwords or necessarily crossing wires.

For example, Chris writes: I have to create threads asking people to suggest books for each reading period. When the suggestions aren't coming in I have to make posts imploring members to make suggestions. That’s something that can be delegated, and I think part of that process can be streamlined by picking the discussion leader before the reading period begins. With the staggered plan – I’m using that as an example only because it gives the smaller and more restricted timeframe -- we would have about a month for each voting period. Preferably, we would already have a backlog of suggestions from which to select nominations. Let’s allow a week for the nomination process, such that the actual poll for voting is posted on the 7th of the month. Allow another two weeks for voting, such that the official selection is announced on the 21st. The last week is downtime for most of the community – time to get their orders in, and wait for the book. During that time, we look for volunteers to serve as discussion leader. Then, on the last day of the month, Chris prepares the forum, leaving it empty. It’s up to the discussion leader to create the official chapter threads for that book – one less job that Chris has to do, and if they discussion leader is fairly reliable, the job gets done on time. If it doesn’t, then by the 2nd or 3rd day of the new month the job is turned over to someone else, or Chris creates the discussion threads. He has a right to grumble about it, but even if three of the discussion leaders turn out to be duds, the fourth has saved him that little bit of work that he would have otherwise had to himself.

Another example: currently, suggestions are made by everyone, and the final vote is made by everyone, but the intermediate step of deciding on nominations is done by Chris and a small committee of mods. There may, however, be a way of making the nomination process more democratic and more automatic by requiring that suggestions be seconded. Here’s a hypothetical process to consider. We run the suggestion thread as usual. Each person is welcome to make as many suggestions as they’d like, but they’re only allowed to second one book. Further, they cannot second their own suggestion. Whichever books receive the most seconds automatically appear on the ballot, with the ceiling being that imposed by ezBoard: 5 candidates per poll. The mods retain veto power as a safeguard against foul play and silliness, and in the event of an indecisive result the final decision for nomination rests with the admins. When that happens, Chris and company have just as much work as they’ve always had. But if it doesn’t happen, they’re saved a great deal of work.

If changes to the voting process don’t appeal to you, another alternative is to find regular contributors willing to serve as nomination “editors.” You’d have a Science/Technology editor, for example, and a Fiction editor, for instance. These volunteers would sift through the nominations and choose five. They’d present these nominations Chris and the mods, who would retain, again, veto power. If one or more of the five were vetoed, the editor would have to find a suitable replacement for each. In essence, the same amount of word would be done, but by more hands than before. (Personally, I prefer the changes to the voting process, but that’s something we can discuss.)

One thing that may save you a lot of trouble, Chris, is having some templates to work from. For instance, with the sidebar, I’ll likely be giving you the code and letting you implement it. What I would suggest is that you save the file on your computer and make it read only so that you can’t make changes to the template. Then, whenever you want to make changes to the sidebar – to change links, or the announcement box, for instance – copy and paste the sidebar template into a new file and make the changes there. I’ll be putting a lot of notation in the code so that it’ll be easy to know what to change in order to make it look however you’d want. There are probably other places you can implement the template idea, if you don’t already do it. Think of all the things messages you type month after month, or quarter after quarter, with very little change. Think also of things that could be made more consistent month to month – those can also have templates. Templates may only save you time and effort in small increments, but those small increments add up over time.

In general, I can try to make it so that the changes you make to BookTalk on a regular basis are as cut-and-paste as possible. That should also save you some time and aggravation.

As for the issue of the staggered book discussion, I think you may be missing an angle on the issue of how it affects the time you put into BookTalk.

If you needed to go get new tires on your car wouldn't it be more time efficient to get them all at the same time?

Not if it meant you had to skip an entire day of work to do it. I think what you're going to find is that doing this once a month for four books is going to sap up a great deal of time all at once. It'll kill a weekend, at least. Doing it at the end of every month will mean that it takes up an evening, rather than four consecutive evenings. It may be necessary to spread it out, simply because you won't always have a weekend to spare at the end of the quarter. Again, delegating may help. Planning out a personal calendar of small steps may make it more digestible as well – on the 1st you set up a forum for the new discussion, on the 3rd you make sure the discussion leader has all the threads set up, on the 8th you post the ballot for the next reading, and so on.

But this is a question that will really only be answered by trying it. If you can do it all at the end of the quarter without it seriously disrupting your life, then it's clearly to your benefit. I think it's better for the site to stagger, but that advantage won't mean much to you if it's that much more work to pull it off. On the other hand, if you try to do it all in a single week at the end of the quarter, and it turns out that you've had to forsake family, food, sleep and work to pull it off, then it may turn out better for both you and the community to stretch it out and do a little at the end of each month rather than get all four tires changed at once.

EzBoard limitations
That section cannot exceed 5000 characters. This might sound like a lot, but it pertains to the raw code, and not the text that you see. The raw code includes the table attributes, background colors, links to Amazon, etc...

I can help you fix that, to some extent, by putting more of your table attributes in the style sheet. That won't eliminate the need for code, but it can help to abbreviate that code a great deal, so that you don't have to put the actual values into the banner itself. Style tags will refer to the style sheet – the values will be there, rather than in the HTML, which will save you on the character count.

By the way - notice how the book images aren't even links? I ran out of available characters for the forum description. As I said we can only use 1000 total characters.

I think I may know a way around this, Chris, but I need to do a little catching up on my CSS. I tend to code only about three or four times a year, and I tend to forget things during the intervals between. Basically, though, I think the trick is to


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