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MadArchitect
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Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: 1st Quarter NONFICTION Book Suggestions
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A few general comments: I forgot to mention earlier that I would not be adverse to reading "Freakonomics", though it wouldn't be my first choice. I'm been trying to read more economics lately, but I'd prefer to read some more classical expositions before digging into something potentially controversial like "Freakonomics". It's certainly one I'll consider voting for if it makes the ballot, though.
Also, I picked up a book on the Haitian revolution today, which should more or less sate my appetite for Haitian history. I'll still read along if the other book gets picked, but don't go including it on the nomination lists just for little ol' me.
GOD defiles Reason: Since this is our first quarter to be more inclusive to theists than before, I'm not strongly disagreeing with that except to say that this is the suggestion thread going through the suggestion process and not yet in the selection and voting process.
Good point, and I should qualify my earlier statements by saying that it's not my intention to suppress any suggestions. It's just my understanding that Chris wants us to discuss the pros and cons of each suggestion so that we're more informed going into the actual selection process. That's really the best way we, as non-moderators, have of voicing our input into the process of narrowing down the suggestions into the five nominations that make it on the final ballot.
It's up to each of us individually to keep our discussions productive rather than pointless little squabbles. We can do that no matter who the author is, if we choose to do so.
That's a good point as well. My concern is simply that we pick a book that encourages that.
marti1900: Inventing the People, by Edmund S. Morgan
Glad that you brought this one back up. I was reading the first few chapters when I made the suggestion, and while I said that I would probably be finished with the book before by the time the Q4 reading selection was decided, I got distracted by a dozen other books and haven't made much progress since then. Which is simply to say that, I'd still be reading along with everyone else if this book ended up getting picked for the Q1 reading.
Full House by Stephen Jay Gould
No! I've had more than my fill of the Olsen twins, thank you kindly.
(Kidding.) |
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pctacitus Senior
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Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:29 am Post subject: Re: 1st Quarter NONFICTION Book Suggestions
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Imperial Grunts : The American Military on the Ground by Robert D. Kaplan
www.amazon.com/gp/product...s&v=glance
I have read the first couple chapters and am hoping to share this with you guys so I am holding off. Kaplan is known as someone higher ups read (particularly since Colin Powell gave one of his books to Bill Clinton in the early 90s). I know some have read at least one of his books, among them "Mediterranean Winter: The Pleasures of History and Landscape in Tunisia, Sicily, Dalmatia, and Greece" (2004); "Warrior Politics: Why Leadership Demands a Pagan Ethos" (2002); "Eastward to Tartary: Travels in the Balkans, the Middle East, and the Caucasus" (2000); "The Coming Anarchy: Shattering the Dreams of the Post Cold War" (2000); "An Empire Wilderness: Travels Into America's Future" (1998); "The Ends of the Earth: A Journey at the Dawn of the 21st Century" (1996); "The Arabists: The Romance of an American Elite" (1993); "Balkan Ghosts: A Journey Through History" (1993); "Soldiers of God: With the Mujahidin in Afghanistan" (1990); and "Surrender or Starve: The Wars Behind the Famine" (1988). Just read this excerpt or watch his booktv indepth interview and decide for yourselves.
www.booktv.org/indepth/in...chedID=339
Excerpt. © Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved. CHAPTER ONE
CENTCOM
YEMEN, WINTER 2002
With Notes On Colombia
“Yemen was vast. And it was only one small country. . . . How to manage such an imperium?”
In November 1934, when the British traveler and Arabist Freya Stark journeyed to Yemen to explore the broad oasis of the Wadi Hadhramaut, the most helpful person she encountered was the French aesthete and business tycoon Antonin Besse, whose Aden-based trading empire stretched from Abyssinia to East Asia. Besse, dressed in a white dinner jacket with creased white shorts, served excellent wine at dinner, and was described as “a Merchant in the style of the Arabian Nights or the Renaissance.”1 In December 2002, when I went to Yemen, the most helpful person I encountered was Bob Adolph, a retired lieutenant colonel in the United States Army Special Forces, who was the United Nations security officer for Yemen.
Adolph, whose military career had taken him all over the world, had the chest of a bodybuilder and a bluff, bulldog face under wire-rim glasses and a creased ball cap. I spotted him on the other side of passport control, waiting in the dusky warehouse under fluorescent lights that functioned as the Sana‘a airport.
Because of their own al-Qaeda problem, the Yemenis were suspicious of anyone with a Pakistani visa inside his passport. I was pulled over by a man smoking a cigarette and wearing a torn sweater and slippers. Adolph, seeing that I was making no progress, ambled over to him, speaking in bad but passable Arabic, gritting his teeth each time he made a point. Others were also haggling with customs and passport officers. It was a typical third world scene: confusion and a cacophony of negotiation in place of fixed standards.
After more of Adolph’s pleading, I got back my passport. We headed for the parking lot. It was 2 a.m. Two beggar boys grabbed my bags and put them in the Land Cruiser. Adolph slipped them half a dollar in riyals. I was relaxed. The Arab world, while afflicted by political violence, had little or no common crime. In this sense, Islam had risen to the challenge of urbanization and modern life, and was a full-fledged success.
“This is the most democratic state in Arabia. For that reason it’s the most dangerous and unstable,” Adolph said, explaining that when Western-style democracy replaced absolute dictatorship in places with high unemployment rates and weak, corrupt institutions, the result was often a security vacuum that groups like al-Qaeda could take advantage of. “I’ve drawn up multiple evacuation plans for the U.N. staff here, updating calling-tree lists,” he went on. “If the place goes down during the night, I can have all our people in Asmara the next day in time for brunch at the InterContinental there. The trick is to keep doing favors for people in the army, the police, and the tribes, and never call them in, until you need them to get your people out.”
He veered to avoid another head-on. “Notice the way people drive here, you’ve got ten-year-olds propped up on phone books driving Granddad around town. Forget about rules and licenses. Keep all of your cash in different pockets. Despite all of the guns, ready cash always gives you more power in Yemen than a gun. Everybody in this country is a businessman, and a good one.” His tone was commanding, didactic.
It was the last night of Ramadan. Though a few hours before dawn, the streets were noisy and crowded, and gaily strung with lights. Sana‘a resembled a fairy-tale vision of Arabia, with basalt and mudbrick buildings festooned with colored glass fretwork and gypsum friezes. I recalled my first visit to Yemen in 1986.
Back then, the diplomats and other area specialists had assured me that with the discovery of oil in significant amounts, the Yemeni government would soon have the financial wherewithal to extend its power into the countryside, ending the feudal chaos. The opposite had occurred. To placate the sheikhs, the government bribed them with the newfound wealth, so oil revenues strengthened the medieval periphery rather than the modernizing capital. Kidnappings of foreign tourists erupted in the mid-1990s, as the sheikhs got greedy and sought to further blackmail the government. The government also had to compete with wealthy Wahabi extremists from Saudi Arabia and with al-Qaeda, who sometimes had more money with which to influence local Yemeni tribal leaders. With al-Qaeda targeting oil vessels off the Yemeni coast, maritime insurance rates had gone up, reducing sea traffic and consequently the amount of money from oil exports, so the regime had less money for bribes. The foreign community feared that a new wave of kidnappings might lie ahead.
For al-Qaeda, Yemen was a conveniently chaotic, culturally sympathetic country in the heart of Arabia, so much more desirable than far-afield, non-Arab Afghanistan. It might just be a matter of chipping away at the regime.
In downtown Sana‘a, I noticed that people were not wearing the cheap Westernized polyesters that signify the breakdown of tribal identities under the pressure cooker of urbanization. They still wore white thobes with checkered keffiyahs or Kashmiri shawls, with the men sporting jambiyas (ornamental curved daggers) in the middle of their belts.
“It’s tribal everything,” another U.S. military source would explain to me. “The ministries are fiefdoms for the various tribes. It’s a world of stovepipe bureaucracies. All the information flows to the top and none of it is shared along the way, so that only [President Ali Abdullah] Saleh knows what is going on. As for the furious demands from the Americans to fight bin Laden, we Americans are just another crazy tribe that Saleh holds close to his chest, and balances against the others. Same with al-Qaeda. Saleh has to appease and do favors for everyone to stay in power.” Yeah, I thought, whichever dog is closest to biting him, he feeds.
Adolph told me that the Yemeni government controlled only about 50 percent of the country. A high-ranking Western diplomat in Yemen would hotly dispute that claim, telling me that Saleh controlled “all the main roads, oil fields, and pipelines,” which, I countered, was less than 50 percent of the country. “Well,” the diplomat huffed, “he controls what he needs to control.” If that was the case, I thought, then why was there such a problem with al-Qaeda in Yemen at the time of my visit? The difference between Adolph and this diplomat was not in their facts, or even in their perceptions, it would turn out. Rather, like the Marine lieutenant colonel I had met briefly at Camp Pendleton, Adolph didn’t know how to be subtle, or how to dissemble. He was brutally, refreshingly direct. Dealing with him saved time.
Inside the galloping Land Cruiser, Adolph knocked off the most recent security “incidents” in the country. His apartment building had been the scene of a gun battle between the son of a highly placed sheikh and government forces, with four people “KIA” (killed in action). Several more had been killed during a firefight between the al-Haima and Bani Mattar tribes outside Sana‘a. Two bombs had exploded near the homes of government officials in the capital. In nearby Ma’rib there had been an attempt to assassinate the regional governor, Abdullah Ali al-Nassi, when tribesmen blocked the road and opened fire on his vehicle. The reasons for all this violence remained murky. As for al-Jawf and other areas on the Saudi frontier, there had been so many bombings and gun battles that Adolph hadn’t bothered to investigate or keep count. All this was a prelude to the assassination of a leading Yemeni politician and the murder of three American missionaries.
Adolph, trained as a hostage negotiator by Great Britain’s New Scotland Yard, told me what to do in case I was kidnapped: “Don’t protest. Be submissive. Show them pictures of your family to establish a relationship. After the first few hours, ask to see the sheikh. If they take you to meet him, it’s all right. It’s an authorized kidnapping, for the sake of convincing the authorities to give the tribe a new road or water well. They’ll tell you the negotiations should be completed in a few days; figure two months. Foreigners have been known to gain weight in the course of being held hostage in Yemen. Each family in the village will host you for a while, to divide the cost of your food. But if they don’t take you to see the sheikh the first day, start to worry. Then it may be an unauthorized kidnapping, and it’s okay to think of ways to escape.”
He slowed the vehicle as we got closer to his apartment in a wealthy area of Sana‘a where many expatriates lived. High walls, armed guards, and concertina wire were everywhere: the paraphernalia of paranoia.
I was headed for Injun Country, Adolph told me. He meant the desert wastes of northern Yemen abutting the Saudi border, a border that the Yemeni government was attempting to demarcate, even as local tribesmen were blowing up the new border markers. The next day I had an appointment with a sheikh who could provide me with guards and a guide, a sheikh for whom Adolph had done favors.
Sheikh Abdulkarim bin ali Murshed, forty, looked older than he was: something not uncommon in a country where extreme poverty and a high birthrate literally sped up time. Well over half of the people in Yemen hadn’t been born when I had first visited sixteen years before. From his father, Sheikh Murshed had inherited control of one hundred thousand Khawlan tribesmen who lived east of Sana‘a. They were part of the Bakil tribal confede... “…the great events in life come from the books, rather than the people, one comes across.” - Robert D. Kaplan, Mediterranean Winter: the Pleasures of History and Landscape in Tunisia, Sicily, Dalmatia, and Greece |
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tarav  Stupendously Brilliant BookTalk.org Moderator Silver Contributor


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Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: 1st Quarter NONFICTION Book Suggestions
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| I would read Marti's suggestion of Full House by Gould. I would also read/re-read any of Gould's books. |
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pctacitus Senior
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Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: 1st Quarter NONFICTION Book Suggestions
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| Isn't Gould dead? “…the great events in life come from the books, rather than the people, one comes across.” - Robert D. Kaplan, Mediterranean Winter: the Pleasures of History and Landscape in Tunisia, Sicily, Dalmatia, and Greece |
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Chris OConnor  Rhodes Scholar BookTalk.org Owner

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Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: 1st Quarter NONFICTION Book Suggestions
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| Yes. |
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Mr. Pessimistic  Professor Silver Contributor


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Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:17 am Post subject: Re: 1st Quarter NONFICTION Book Suggestions
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But his books are not....
Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"
I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper |
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Chris OConnor  Rhodes Scholar BookTalk.org Owner

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:09 am Post subject: Re: 1st Quarter NONFICTION Book Suggestions
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Under the Banner of Heaven by by Jon Krakauer
We discussed reading this book recently. I think with adding multiple nonfiction books we should give this one a shot. I can't picture this topic not making for some great discussion material.
Amazon.com In 1984, Ron and Dan Lafferty murdered the wife and infant daughter of their younger brother Allen. The crimes were noteworthy not merely for their brutality but for the brothers' claim that they were acting on direct orders from God. In Under the Banner of Heaven, Jon Krakauer tells the story of the killers and their crime but also explores the shadowy world of Mormon fundamentalism from which the two emerged. The Mormon Church was founded, in part, on the idea that true believers could speak directly with God. But while the mainstream church attempted to be more palatable to the general public by rejecting the controversial tenet of polygamy, fundamentalist splinter groups saw this as apostasy and took to the hills to live what they believed to be a righteous life. When their beliefs are challenged or their patriarchal, cult-like order defied, these still-active groups, according to Krakauer, are capable of fighting back with tremendous violence. While Krakauer's research into the history of the church is admirably extensive, the real power of the book comes from present-day information, notably jailhouse interviews with Dan Lafferty. Far from being the brooding maniac one might expect, Lafferty is chillingly coherent, still insisting that his motive was merely to obey God's command. Krakauer's accounts of the actual murders are graphic and disturbing, but such detail makes the brothers' claim of divine instruction all the more horrifying. In an age where Westerners have trouble comprehending what drives Islamic fundamentalists to kill, Jon Krakauer advises us to look within America's own borders. |
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Jeremy1952  Doctorate Bronze Contributor

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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: 1st Quarter NONFICTION Book Suggestions
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| Gladwell mentions Gift of Fear and quotes De Becker in "blink". So I'm not the only one seeing a connection! |
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MadArchitect
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Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: 1st Quarter NONFICTION Book Suggestions
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| Krakauer's a reputable writer, and I'm sure the book is well-researched. My only concern is that, given the true crime focus of the book, it's likely to skew any understanding of Mormonism derived from it. If it gets picked, maybe we should run a optional, concurrent reading that's specifically about the doctrives and development of Mormonism -- in the interest of balance. |
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Chris OConnor  Rhodes Scholar BookTalk.org Owner

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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:00 am Post subject: Re: 1st Quarter NONFICTION Book Suggestions
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Anyone is welcome to initiate a book discussion to run concurrently with one of our quarterly selections. But please keep in mind that we don't have a large number of active members. If we spread ourselves too thin by suggesting members read too many books we'll have barren discussion forums.
I don't see a reason to try to find a book to counter the Mormon book. Trying to balance everything is too much work. Isn't it enough that we're getting people to read and discuss quality books? Within any particular book forum members can raise points where they disagree with the authors. I cannot see us effectively reading handfuls of books concurrently just so that we're sure we cover all sides of the subject.
But I see your point, Mad. Maybe we can simply have an active discussion where we all honestly explore and discuss the book. I don't think we can afford to have the few active members we do have off reading additional books as opposed to focusing on our main books. |
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MadArchitect
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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:20 am Post subject: Re: 1st Quarter NONFICTION Book Suggestions
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Chris OConnor: If we spread ourselves too thin by suggesting members read too many books we'll have barren discussion forums.
I wouldn't think of running it as anything but an optional reading for those who are interested in comparing (reputable) points of view. But I do think it would be good for the official selection, as it's bound to add another layer to discussion, even if only two or three people are reading both books and comparing.
Trying to balance everything is too much work. Isn't it enough that we're getting people to read and discuss quality books?
Maybe from the viewpoint of BookTalk's activity, but at the same time, I think balance is a value that we should attempt to encourage as much as possible. In as much as BookTalk still purports to be a freethinkers' forum, it's more in keeping with the tone of the site if we encourage people to compare points of view. Otherwise, we run the risk of treating the official selection as something of an authority.
But this isn't the sort of thing I'd suggest with every book. In this specific instance, it appears that Mormonism is being discussed specifically in light of a group of murders -- that's a rather extroidinary set of circumstances, and I think it demands a little balance. It may be that Krakauer handles it with the appropriate tact. I just think that we should be careful to do so, regardless of whether or not the author does.
Maybe we can simply have an active discussion where we all honestly explore and discuss the book.
That may be the case. But then, again, this is one of those books that could easily play to the hostility that a lot of BookTalk members already have for religion. I'd much rather see us read books that provoked complex reactions, not those that simply renew arguments that have been circulating here since before I joined the site. |
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pctacitus Senior
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Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: 1st Quarter NONFICTION Book Suggestions
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| Looks like I will be out of town in isolation, so I hereby withdraw my nomination. “…the great events in life come from the books, rather than the people, one comes across.” - Robert D. Kaplan, Mediterranean Winter: the Pleasures of History and Landscape in Tunisia, Sicily, Dalmatia, and Greece |
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Mr. Pessimistic  Professor Silver Contributor


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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:37 pm Post subject: Team of Rivals : The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln
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This caught my eye in an email newsletter I get from Borders.com.
Team of Rivals : The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln
I have always found Lincoln admirable. This book may just show us how a diverse group can come together to overcome the disarray our political system has become.
And we can learn about a man that just about everyone respects.
Quote: Amazon.com The life and times of Abraham Lincoln have been analyzed and dissected in countless books. Do we need another Lincoln biography? In Team of Rivals, esteemed historian Doris Kearns Goodwin proves that we do. Though she can't help but cover some familiar territory, her perspective is focused enough to offer fresh insights into Lincoln's leadership style and his deep understanding of human behavior and motivation. Goodwin makes the case for Lincoln's political genius by examining his relationships with three men he selected for his cabinet, all of whom were opponents for the Republican nomination in 1860: William H. Seward, Salmon P. Chase, and Edward Bates. These men, all accomplished, nationally known, and presidential, originally disdained Lincoln for his backwoods upbringing and lack of experience, and were shocked and humiliated at losing to this relatively obscure Illinois lawyer. Yet Lincoln not only convinced them to join his administration--Seward as secretary of state, Chase as secretary of the treasury, and Bates as attorney general--he ultimately gained their admiration and respect as well. How he soothed egos, turned rivals into allies, and dealt with many challenges to his leadership, all for the sake of the greater good, is largely what Goodwin's fine book is about. Had he not possessed the wisdom and confidence to select and work with the best people, she argues, he could not have led the nation through one of its darkest periods. Ten years in the making, this engaging work reveals why "Lincoln's road to success was longer, more tortuous, and far less likely" than the other men, and why, when opportunity beckoned, Lincoln was "the best prepared to answer the call." This multiple biography further provides valuable background and insights into the contributions and talents of Seward, Chase, and Bates. Lincoln may have been "the indispensable ingredient of the Civil War," but these three men were invaluable to Lincoln and they played key roles in keeping the nation intact. --Shawn Carkonen
The Team of Rivals
Team of Rivals doesn't just tell the story of Abraham Lincoln. It is a multiple biography of the entire team of personal and political competitors that he put together to lead the country through its greatest crisis. Here, Doris Kearns Goodwin profiles five of the key players in her book, four of whom contended for the 1860 Republican presidential nomination and all of whom later worked together in Lincoln's cabinet. (The numbers refer to the cover photo)
1. Edwin M. Stanton Stanton treated Lincoln with utter contempt at their initial acquaintance when the two men were involved in a celebrated law case in the summer of 1855. Unimaginable as it might seem after Stanton's demeaning behavior, Lincoln offered him "the most powerful civilian post within his gift"--the post of secretary of war--at their next encounter six years later. On his first day in office as Simon Cameron's replacement, the energetic, hardworking Stanton instituted "an entirely new regime" in the War Department. After nearly a year of disappointment with Cameron, Lincoln had found in Stanton the leader the War Department desperately needed. Lincoln's choice of Stanton revealed his singular ability to transcend personal vendetta, humiliation, or bitterness. As for Stanton, despite his initial contempt for the man he once described as a "long armed Ape," he not only accepted the offer but came to respect and love Lincoln more than any person outside of his immediate family. He was beside himself with grief for weeks after the president's death. 2. Salmon P. Chase Chase, an Ohioan, had been both senator and governor, had played a central role in the formation of the national Republican Party, and had shown an unflagging commitment to the cause of the black man. No individual felt he deserved the presidency as a natural result of his past contributions more than Chase himself, but he refused to engage in the practical methods by which nominations are won. He had virtually no campaign and he failed to conciliate his many enemies in Ohio itself. As a result, he alone among the candidates came to the convention without the united support of his own state. Chase never ceased to underestimate Lincoln, nor to resent the fact that he had lost the presidency to a man he considered his inferior. His frustration with his position as secretary of the treasury was alleviated only by his his dogged hope that he, rather than Lincoln, would be the Republican nominee in 1864, and he steadfastly worked to that end. The president put up with Chase's machinations and haughty yet fundamentally insecure nature because he recognized his superlative accomplishments at treasury. Eventually, however, Chase threatened to split the Republican Party by continuing to fill key positions with partisans who supported his presidential hopes. When Lincoln stepped in, Chase tendered his resignation as he had three times before, but this time Lincoln stunned Chase by calling his bluff and accepting the offer.
3. Abraham Lincoln When Lincoln won the Republican presidential nomination in 1860 he seemed to have come from nowhere--a backwoods lawyer who had served one undistinguished term in the House of Representatives and lost two consecutive contests for the U.S. Senate. Contemporaries attributed his surprising nomination to chance, to his moderate position on slavery, and to the fact that he hailed from the battleground state of Illinois. But Lincoln's triumph, particularly when viewed against the efforts of his rivals, owed much to a remarkable, unsuspected political acuity and an emotional strength forged in the crucible of hardship and defeat. That Lincoln, after winning the presidency, made the unprecedented decision to incorporate his eminent rivals into his political family, the cabinet, was evidence of an uncanny self-confidence and an indication of what would prove to others a most unexpected greatness.
4. William H. Seward A celebrated senator from New York for more than a decade and governor of his state for two terms before going to Washington, Seward was certain he was going to receive his party's nomination for president in 1860. The weekend before the convention in Chicago opened he had already composed a first draft of the valedictory speech he expected to make to the Senate, assuming that he would resign his position as soon as the decision in Chicago was made. His mortification at not having received the nomination never fully abated, and when he was offered his cabinet post as secretary of state he intended to have a major role in choosing the remaining cabinet members, conferring upon himself a position in the new government more commanding than that of Lincoln himself. He quickly realized the futility of his plan to relegate the president to a figurehead role. Though the feisty New Yorker would continue to debate numerous issues with Lincoln in the years ahead, exactly as Lincoln had hoped and needed him to do, Seward would become his closest friend, advisor, and ally in the administration. More than any other cabinet member Seward appreciated Lincoln's peerless skill in balancing factions both within his administration and in the country at large.
5. Edward Bates A widely respected elder statesman, a delegate to the convention that framed the Missouri Constitution, and a former Missouri congressman whose opinions on national matters were still widely sought, Bates's ambitions for political success were gradually displaced by love for his wife and large family, and he withdrew from public life in the late 1840s. For the next 20 years he was asked repeatedly to run or once again accept high government posts but he consistently declined. However in early 1860, with letters and newspaper editorials advocating his candidacy crowding in upon him, he decided to try for the highest office in the land. After losing to Lincoln he vowed, in his diary, to decline a cabinet position if one were to be offered, but with the country "in trouble and danger" he felt it was his duty to accept when Lincoln asked him | | |