Ok,

I'm done. Putting away the troll snacks...

Stahrwe wrote:You never fail to disappoint. Another fallacy. You are the one holding Carl Sagan's statement up as a metric to judge Biblical evidence and when I point that he has no claim to authority on the subject you cry fallacy. How sad.

I didn't bring up Carl Sagan, you did(as well as Jesus, for some reason). I don't care who the quote was from. What I care about is that is it a reasonable rubric by which to judge various claims. Why do you keep referring back to Carl Sagan? What does he have to do with any of this?

I did not say I was 'sick and tired' of logic. Stop making things up. I am well aware of logics limits and fundamental flaws.

I'm not speaking of what you "said", I'm speaking of what you "implied", by putting the work LOGIC in all caps after presenting fallacious reasoning. Your games don't work here, sorry. Also, if you're aware of the limits and fundamental flaws of logic, you're also well aware that in these specific instances, you cannot hide behind them with your repeatedly false reasoning. Which means, your reasoning in these cases is truly false.

I'll take the millions of people in China who have been raised since birth in a society where God does not exist. Yet, when told about Jesus, they become Christians and accept God.

That is fallacious reasoning, if you use it to support your position. Aren't you getting tired of using fallacious reasoning? I'm getting tired of pointing it out.

OK, prophet says Israel would be refounded as a nation in 907,200 days. 907,200 days later Israel refounded as a nation. Extraordinary prediction. Perfectly fulfilled.

The "prophet" said nothing of the sort. No such prediction was made. We've covered this already, you refuse to address the details.

" a society where God does not exist."

Wow this sounds strangely as if God only exists if people believe in him!

In my consideration of the psychology of belief and disbelief. . . I forgot to mention two very strong reasons 1) the desire to dominate and "lead" large groups of people and sway them to your way of thinking (i.e. Jim Jones, David Korach, etc, etc, . . . many present day figures) 2) the desire to be masochistic and to be led and dominated. To not have to think for oneself. To not be responsible for yourself.

lady of shallot wrote: the psychology of the people

Another of those explanations which sounds reasonable but with a bit of knowledge falls apart. Your explanation for conversion does not explain those of the first century, people abandoning beliefs they held for years and, it fails to explain conversions in Communist China and the former Soviet States. Both taught atheism to their citizens. The growth of Christianity in China is expected to be the story for the next generation. Expecting up to 400,000,000 Christians.

johnson1010 wrote:No, not my work.

I change the caption.

As to the original artist, or the original satirist, i don't know who that was.

Pity, a little Bible knowledge would have helped you to know that the picture is of Jacob wrestling with the Angel. The artist was Paul Gustave Doré. The drawing was done in 1855 and had no text bubble in the drawing.

You just got learned

Interbane,

I did not bring up Carl you guys did as justification for demanding 'extraordinary evidence'. Evidence is evidence and the attempt to qualify the necessity with respect to the Bible as 'extraordinary' evidence is a transparent ruse to allow maximum lattitude to reject anything. It is clear that such a necessity doesn't invalidate atheism but, to a thinking person, shows the weaknesses your recognize in your arguments.

Denial of the prophecy is a waste of effort. It stands and was fulfilled.

Your constant attempts to invoke logic and claim fallacies is ineffectual. I have shown the errors inherent in logic and you misapplication of the fallacy card.

Johnson1010,

The tendency to evade discussion is something I recognized early. It is inculcated by Dawkins and others with respect to creaionists but you have to justify yours by calling me a troll. I suspect I might qualify as one if my primary function at BT was to post controversial topics but, for the most part, I respond to postings by pointing out the mistakes that are made. Please cite specific examples where I have engaged in Trolling behavior.

lady of shallot wrote:In my consideration of the psychology of belief and disbelief. . . I forgot to mention two very strong reasons 1) the desire to dominate and "lead" large groups of people and sway them to your way of thinking (i.e. Jim Jones, David Korach, etc, etc, . . . many present day figures) 2) the desire to be masochistic and to be led and dominated. To not have to think for oneself. To not be responsible for yourself.

And yet again:

#1 has nothing to do with Christianity. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite, etc., were interested in their own message and power not in Jesus.

#2 Your argument fails again when one examines the USSR, the PRC, and now Egypt.

This is precisely why you're considered a troll Stahrwe. Your responses serve no other purpose than to make people angry. Look at the three claims you make in your post:

"I did not bring up Carl you guys did" - False. You mentioned his name first. Now you'll go on to play some juvenile game about how mentioning "extraordinary evidence" is equivalent to mentioning his name. It's not. This reliance on the "source" of information betrays the fallacious thinking you are prone to. You'd rather engage in ad hominems and discuss the source of claims rather than claims themselves.

"Denial of the prophecy is a waste of effort. It stands and was fulfilled." - False. In what alternate reality? It's telling that you're afraid to engage in the details.

"Your constant attempts to invoke logic and claim fallacies is ineffectual. I have shown the errors inherent in logic and you misapplication of the fallacy card." - False. You've mentioned some areas where logic doesn't apply in the hopes that you'd be excused of committing fallacies. You are not excused. You commit fallacies, and when it's mentioned to you, you simply say "no I didn't". Look:

Stahrwe wrote:So we are in a position where we have two competing statements with different sources:

Carl Sagan

vs

Jesus.

Carl Sagan is taking a dirt nap

Jesus is alive in Heaven

I pick Jesus.

Then you mock logic as if logic cannot keep up with such a flawless argument! What else can be said to you? Here's your sign.

No sense in trying to communicate with trolls, Interbane. They speak an entirely different language and once the logic of an argument tries to sink it, off goes the thinking mode and back into Troll-Land.

Interbane wrote: "I did not bring up Carl you guys did" - False. You mentioned his name first.

Interbane,

I am beginning to wonder if you have a problem; or maybe you are just playing some rigid game of semantics. With respect to Carl Sagan and who "brought" him up first:

On Tuesday, 2/1/11 at 12 Noon, I asked who said that "Extraordiary evidence demands..."

You, Interbane, replied on Tuesday, 2/1/11 at 12:30PM (that's afternoon...after my post, not before) with http://skeptico.clogs.com/skeptico/2008 ... etc.

That link takes one to a page which begins: "so said Carl Sagan..."

Now, maybe you didn't mention his name first, and if that it the basis of your calling my statement false then you continue to amaze with your smoke and mirrors, if that was not your intent, you should retract your claim that I made a false statement and apologize for your error.

interbane wrote: Stahrwe quote: "Denial of the prophecy is a waste of effort. It stands and was fulfilled." -


False. In what alternate reality? It's telling that you're afraid to engage in the details.

This is like the guy caught stealing an elephant and when the police stop him and ask him what he is doing with the elephant, he says, "What elephant?"

I have posted the article about the prophecy multiple times. It was fulfilled in this universe, last century and all you can do is say, "What prophecy?"

For someone who claims to be so adept at logic you certainly are illogical.

You need to stop making things up
And stop denying the obvious.